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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

290 replies

Clymene · 24/06/2021 21:13

This is not a TAAT but that is about a horrible violent attack and this question is quite separate.

In any sexual encounter, do you have the right to expect the other person to disclose their biological sex if they visually appear to be of the other sex?

Essentially, does a lesbian have the right to be upset if the person they were female before they got naked has a penis?

Does a gay man have the right to know that someone who appears to be male has a vagina before he has sex?

Does the nature of the encounter matter? If it's a casual encounter, is the onus on the person who appears to be the other sex to come clean in advance, or is it the responsibility of the other person to check before proceeding?

OP posts:
WanderinWomb · 25/06/2021 09:39

@ErrolTheDragon

Stonewall makes it clear that it wants the sex by deception legislation amended ‘where necessary with due regard to the trans person’s right to privacy’.

I can't comprehend what they might mean by 'privacy' in the context of people having sex (or not). Confused

Stonewall reveal themselves there don't they. They apparently see nothing wrong with a lesbian having sexual interactions with a male unknowingly. And that it is the male's "right to privacy" that matters. Thats rapey as hell. Couldn't make it more clear that the L in LGBT means nothing to them.

Seems they have trained the police and judiciary that rape by deception is already legal.
Judge Knott might even comment several times on how very attractive the male was and that the lesbian should have known better than to expect no cock and balls on her partner.

PurpleHoodie · 25/06/2021 09:45

No. It is not acceptable at all.

Wallpapering · 25/06/2021 09:49

No it’s not

And a female was sentenced for 6 or 8years for doing exactly that to another female.

purpleboy · 25/06/2021 10:08

Absolutely not ok, I was quite shocked on another thread someone linked to a Twitter poll, the majority said it was rape by deception, but some of the comments underneath really chilled me, it's made me very scared for my DD18 who is venturing out into the world and what kind of situations she could find herself in. So many people dais they shouldn't have to tell and some were very arrogant about it. The entitlement was unbelievable really.

NeedNewKnees · 25/06/2021 10:11

It’s absolutely wrong to deceive a potential partner about one’s sex. Sex by deception is a crime.

QueeniesCroft · 25/06/2021 10:13

Deception of a sexual partner is never okay.

AlfonsoTheMango · 25/06/2021 10:14

Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

Hmm. Deceive is a tricky term. That said, I think that if you are going to engage in some kind of sexual act with another person you owe them honesty.

OhHolyJesus · 25/06/2021 10:14

No it's not ok.

It's also not ok to beat someone up (different if it's self defence), but no, it is never ok and those who lie about their biological sex to a potential sexual partner should expect consequences. A violent attack and subsequent injuries is not the consequences I would expect.

Datun · 25/06/2021 10:17

Of course it's not okay.

Is this stemming from the idea that biological sex isn't important? Because of course it bloody well is.

I've seen quite a lot of people say but if you were attracted to their face, personality, etc, then what do their genitals matter?

It's all kinds of wrong, and a complete denial of both reality and sexual orientation.

What kind of motivation is there to try and make this acceptable? Who on earth is going to benefit from having sex with someone who would never have done it had they known?

JellySlice · 25/06/2021 10:17

@ErrolTheDragon

Isn't there the potential that the trans person thinks that they are recognised as trans, and that the other person knows they are with a trans person? Say they get together at a venue frequented by all members of the alphabet, why would a transperson think the other is not accepting of trans people as sexual partners, whether same sex out opposite sex?

They might think that, but in that case it costs nothing to clarify rather than to proceed on the basis of an assumption. 'Before we go any further, you do know I'm trans, right?' or whatever.

But people have sex without even knowing their partner's name, without finding anything out about each other - why would this be any different ?

I agree with you, but expecting this particular standard to be upheld is a bit like being judgemental of people who wake up next to a stranger after a ONS.

happydappy2 · 25/06/2021 10:18

Deception of ones sex is not ok. Likewise deception of marital status/HIV status/contraception etc. It is tricking someone into doing something most intimate that they can't consent to.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/06/2021 10:20

Deceive is a tricky term.

Not really.
In terms of the law, it may be that it's only an offence if there was proof of deliberate intent - a 'sin of commission', if you will. From the POV of this thread, about the ethics, a 'sin of omission' - not informing the other person of something that may well matter greatly to them and which they may be unaware of is also reprehensible.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/06/2021 10:22

I agree with you, but expecting this particular standard to be upheld is a bit like being judgemental of people who wake up next to a stranger after a ONS.

No. Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic. That's why it's different from eg marital status.

Helleofabore · 25/06/2021 10:38

But people have sex without even knowing their partner's name, without finding anything out about each other - why would this be any different ?

It is not something that I would feel comfortable with, but some people do enjoy anonymous sex. I believe that even those people deserve to be able to consent to having sex that is safe and within their boundaries. And if that means that a person who has presented themselves as the opposite sex visually needs to clarify that they have a penis or vagina or a neo-vagina/penis, they should out of respect for the other person.

Because that person is using the age old visual cues to identify their prospective sex partner unless they are in a situation that makes it clear to expect the unexpected.

There really does seem to be quite a bit of boundary crossing being allowed.

QuentinBunbury · 25/06/2021 10:51

I personally care less about knowing someone's name than about knowing whether or not I'm going to be encountering a penis or vagina.

I mean, it's sex. It's all about genitals when it's a hook up. Stonewall's position is mad.

Original poster
Clymene · 25/06/2021 10:53

It's different @JellySlice because knowing someone's name is not fundamental to consent. Knowing what genitals the other person has is.

OP posts:
TableFlowerss · 25/06/2021 10:54

Just because someone partakes in a sexual encounter with someone, doesn’t mean they fancy them or are attracted to them physically.

Some will sleep with anyone, even if they don’t find them attractive. Possible and ego thing, notches on the bed post, perhaps they want to get experience…..

Also, how many people wake up the next day and think ‘omg what have I done?’ They had their beer goggles on and in the cold light of day, they wouldn’t chose to get intimate with the particular person they’ve woken up next to. Drink has a lot to answer for and it does affect judgment.

It shouldn’t automatically be assumed that someone is attracted to someone, simply on the back of them sleeping with them, especially if there’s drink involved.

There’s many people that will wake up on a Sunday Monday and cringe at who they have slept with.

andyoldlabour · 25/06/2021 10:56

This is what happened, when an Australian transwomen attacked people with an axe after being rejected by a woman on Tinder, after the woman found out that Amati was transgender.
Of course it is wrong for people to attempt to deceive others.

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/evie-amati-7eleven-axe-attack-sydney-appeal-sentence

Helleofabore · 25/06/2021 10:59

I believe that even those people deserve to be able to consent to having sex that is safe and within their boundaries.

Oh dear. I just read this back and I wrote 'even those people' in response to the tone being used and not my judgement of those who desire this type of encounter as a fully capable adult.

I am finding it really uncomfortable the drift of judgement occurring around this discussion that people who have casual sex encounters 'deserve' what they get which is how is it all coming across to me.

What I had meant was that everyone, regardless of whether the encounter is anonymous and fleeting or part of a new long term relationship, deserves to be able to consent to having sex that is safe and within their boundaries.

WanderinWomb · 25/06/2021 11:02

What kind of motivation is there to try and make this acceptable? Who on earth is going to benefit from having sex with someone who would never have done it had they known?

We can all guess what kind of person would want this. Maybe S Whittle might design to visit us again to clarify whether our guesses are right or wrong. SW is a mumsnetter so maybe could start a thread explaining the theory, is a law lecturer after all.

WanderinWomb · 25/06/2021 11:08

But people have sex without even knowing their partner's name

Its not like not knowing someone's name at all. One knows if one doesnt know someone's name.

One example, a lesbian in a state of undress, having been touched in various ways and received oral sex finding a surprise cock and balls in the dark is nothing at like that. It is sexual assault by deception. I say the same even if is a straight male victim though the power dynamic is different.

Thefaceofboe · 25/06/2021 11:08

Definitely not okay! At first I thought you meant, does a trans person (fully transitioned) have to declare they were previously the opposite, then I would say no.

Imnobody4 · 25/06/2021 11:10

I'm just pondering the idea that that the responsibility should be on the het person to ask if it's important to them. I can imagine a man asking a potential sexual partner are you a transwoman would go down like a lead balloon.

Sex by deception is wrong and should be a criminal offence.

TableFlowerss · 25/06/2021 11:12

But people have sex without even knowing their partner's name

Pretty sure most people wouldn’t care what the name of their hook up is. Knowing their name wouldn’t make them change their mind about what’s going to happen.

“You’re called Sheila?” Right that’s it, I don’t want to do it anymore…. Not problematic.

Knowing someone was born a different sex than the one they identify as, could be a problem for some people. No all, but some.

JellySice · 25/06/2021 11:13

I am finding it really uncomfortable the drift of judgement occurring around this discussion that people who have casual sex encounters 'deserve' what they get which is how is it all coming across to me.*

I'm absolutely not saying this.

I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule.

There's possibly a bit of devil's advocate going on here as well, because I am firmly gender critical.