Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

[Clymene]

This is not a TAAT but that is about a horrible violent attack and this question is quite separate.

In any sexual encounter, do you have the right to expect the other person to disclose their biological sex if they visually appear to be of the other sex?

Essentially, does a lesbian have the right to be upset if the person they were female before they got naked has a penis?

Does a gay man have the right to know that someone who appears to be male has a vagina before he has sex?

Does the nature of the encounter matter? If it's a casual encounter, is the onus on the person who appears to be the other sex to come clean in advance, or is it the responsibility of the other person to check before proceeding?

It's definitely not ok to deceive someone in that way imo! Given that it's now been confirmed as a protected right to believe that TWANW, a lesbian surely has the undeniable right to object to being deceived into sex with someone she considers a man.

No it isn't ok. It forms part of the fundamental contract of consent (as does STD status and contraception imo.)

it would be sex by deception. there was a cse where a women (not trans afaik) was prosecuted for pretending to be a man and using a strap on.

Never ok. Consent can only be freely given if fully informed.

Consent needs three conditions to be met:

-free choice of partner
-free choice of time of encounter
-free choice of activities engaged in

I would say that not being fully informed about the sex of your partner means you cannot make a free choice of partner and that means you cannot give fully informed consent.

Absolutely not ok.

If I was expecting a penis and came face to face with a vulva instead I would be bloody furious. If I was a lesbian suddenly faced with a penis not only would I be furious but I'd also be scared I was about to get raped!

You have the right to expect to be able to give informed consent. The right to choose your genital preference should be non negotiable.

Of course it's not ok

No it's not. Anyone who thinks this is ok is a rape apologist.

No. And a female has been imprisoned for sexual assault for having sex with a woman who believed her to be a man.
It's not OK but equally it's unacceptable to attack someone who deceived you

No it's not ok.

And I don't buy the argument that trans people don't like to tell people incase they get violent when they find out.

But the people who will get violent will be worse if its after something sexual has happened. How does waiting until later reduces the risk of violence?

Following.

OP
Why are you asking?

No, never ok

Of course it's not ok.
It would be completely disrespecting the other persons protected characteristic of sexual orientation. They might be fine with your actual sex, or they might not be. But absolutely they need to know and make that decision.

No it's not. It's sex by deception and like a PP said, full consent cannot be given.

Not unless they told you they were pamsexual and said "surprise me"

Absolutely never okay! I’d consider it a form of rape to deceive someone into sex by concealing your true gender.
The victim would feel betrayed, cheated and probably horrified. All sex should be completely honest and consensual.

I’m interested concerned to know why you want to know this…bit of a strange question IMO.

@TedImgoingmad

No it's not. Anyone who thinks this is ok is a rape apologist.

Agreed.

No.

@spotcheck

OP Why are you asking?

I'm asking because on there is a recent case in the media where a man thought he was having sex relations with a woman. When he realised the person was biologically male, he subjected them to an horrific attack.

I don't want to talk about the attack - that's clearly abhorrent. But the judge in the case said he thought that if you were going to have a casual sexual encounter then you really needed to find out the sex of the other person if it mattered to you.

Quite a few posters agreed and said that it didn't matter.

I think it does.

@Ladylokidoki

No it's not ok.

And I don't buy the argument that trans people don't like to tell people incase they get violent when they find out.

But the people who will get violent will be worse if its after something sexual has happened. How does waiting until later reduces the risk of violence?

It's incel culture. The perceived right to have sex, and therefore to require the other person to get over it. Goes hand in hand with a new sort of blame culture, where a victim of deception is blamed for finding someone superficially attractive before finding out the actual truth of their sex. As if their personality, clothes, good looks in some way cancel out their victim's own sexuality and sexual boundaries.

I think that attack was fairly horrific.

But I also think the Victim was sexually assaulted and if he felt the way I did when I have been sexually assaulted I can understand the wanting to commit violence

The reason I didn't commit violence, was because as a female, the male attacking me was quite likely to kill me, if I physically retaliated. Not because because of some amazing self control.

@Ladylokidoki

No it's not ok.

And I don't buy the argument that trans people don't like to tell people incase they get violent when they find out.

But the people who will get violent will be worse if its after something sexual has happened. How does waiting until later reduces the risk of violence?

Agree with this. If they are honest from the start, before they are alone with the person, then the risk is much lower.

@BlackeyedSusan

it would be sex by deception. there was a cse where a women (not trans afaik) was prosecuted for pretending to be a man and using a strap on.

This

I’m mystified that anyone should suggest this. Presumably in this scenario nobody is thinking about contraception????

@TedImgoingmad

It's incel culture. The perceived right to have sex, and therefore to require the other person to get over it. Goes hand in hand with a new sort of blame culture, where a victim of deception is blamed for finding someone superficially attractive before finding out the actual truth of their sex. As if their personality, clothes, good looks in some way cancel out their victim's own sexuality and sexual boundaries.

Absolutely!

That's why I don't buy it. The people who don't want to be upfront, either get off on the deception. Or they Absolutely feel entitled to have sex with someone, even if they know that person wouldn't want have sex with them, knowing the truth.

But let's be honest, that's the agenda that's been pushed for the last few years 'you are whatever you say you feel like and entitled to anything you want, regardless of the other people involved'