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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

290 replies

Clymene · 24/06/2021 21:13

This is not a TAAT but that is about a horrible violent attack and this question is quite separate.

In any sexual encounter, do you have the right to expect the other person to disclose their biological sex if they visually appear to be of the other sex?

Essentially, does a lesbian have the right to be upset if the person they were female before they got naked has a penis?

Does a gay man have the right to know that someone who appears to be male has a vagina before he has sex?

Does the nature of the encounter matter? If it's a casual encounter, is the onus on the person who appears to be the other sex to come clean in advance, or is it the responsibility of the other person to check before proceeding?

OP posts:
KimikosNightmare · 26/06/2021 14:46

The law requires-did the trans woman have a reasonable belief that the thug consented to the sex act?

In the circumstances here I think she did.

KimikosNightmare · 26/06/2021 14:48

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Are you suggesting the trans woman forced the thug's penis into her mouth?

A male person doesn't have to do this Confusedperhaps get your top lawyer husband to teach you about sexual offences legislation?

I suspect my legal education and experience far exceeds that of many posters.
ArabellaScott · 26/06/2021 14:55

I wasn't talking about the law, per se. I was talking about the idea that consent can be dismissed as unimportant if it's 'a quick blow job'. I can't speak for males, but presumably most hetero men are not that keen on sex acts with males no matter how 'quick' they are.

Cailleach1 · 26/06/2021 15:06

This is a bit disturbing on all levels. The violence, the deception and the violation.

Who knows what would have played out among these effective strangers if there was no deception involved, or discovered.

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2021 15:09

Either a prospective sexual partner won’t care, and then it doesn’t matter if sex is revealed, or they will care and it should be revealed. There is no right to sex.

This is the crux of it. It's either extremely important to most people in which case it's fairly key to consent; or it isn't, in which case it shouldn't be an issue to disclose.

Cailleach1 · 26/06/2021 15:10

If you represent yourself other than as your own sex, does that mean you conceal your sex? If you conceal your sex, can the other person consent to something which was kept hidden?

Original poster
Clymene · 26/06/2021 16:02

Much as I don't want this thread to be about the other case, it seems abundantly clear that Soolas thought he was being given a blow job by a woman. Had he known the truth, he would not have consented.

Consent obtained by deception is not consent.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 16:34

I suspect my legal education and experience far exceeds that of many posters.

Right.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 16:35

If you represent yourself other than as your own sex, does that mean you conceal your sex?

Yes. And this is the fundamental problem with TWAW, whatever its adherents say. Most people don't agree.

PurpleHoodie · 26/06/2021 17:50

Eresh

So succinct.

Arbadacarba · 26/06/2021 18:31

@QuentinBunbury

There is a world of difference between the situation described in that case and a quick blow job from a person barely any time after first meeting them. What I don't understand was how the person receiving came to find the person giving had a penis. It does sound like something non consensual happened there.
There's no suggestion of that in the article:

"He later found himself alone with the woman and she performed a sex act on sex on him.

Sood eventually turned on the light and exclaimed "you're a man" before punching her repeatedly and slamming her head down on a washing machine."

It sounds as though the better lighting simply enabled him to see her more clearly.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 18:34

The point remains. A trans person is by definition not actually the sex they are presenting as. Sex by deception is a crime.

Original poster
Clymene · 26/06/2021 18:39

If you read other articles @Arbadacarba - he realised they had a penis before turning on the light.

It's irrelevant anyway. He did not consent to have sex with someone with a penis. If he had known, he would not have done.

OP posts:
Arbadacarba · 26/06/2021 18:45

Ah, OK - I've found a piece in The Sun which says 'During the encounter, he reached down and realised she had male genitals.'

Sood was initiating the genital contact, if that's how it happened.

Datun · 26/06/2021 18:48

@Arbadacarba

Ah, OK - I've found a piece in The Sun which says 'During the encounter, he reached down and realised she had male genitals.'

Sood was initiating the genital contact, if that's how it happened.

Isn't having your penis in someone's mouth genital contact?
Manteiga · 26/06/2021 20:14

And, @Cailleach1, this is the guidance that Stonewall want to 'clarify' - basically to print get-out-of-gaol-free cards.

ValancyRedfern · 26/06/2021 20:29

Absolutely not OK. It worries me that the message going out to teens is that a trans person shouldn't have to tell a potential sexual partner their sex. I had a girl in my Yr9 form ask me if I thought a trans person should have to tell someone they were trans before sex, because on tiktok everyone's saying trans people shouldn't have to tell. I was pretty forthright in my response!

SmokedDuck · 26/06/2021 20:37

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Or are we back to the 'one mouth is much the same as any other' argument that someone made on the deleted thread?

I think we are.

While that's a distasteful comment, I'm not convinced there aren't cases where that's the underlying assumption of the situation. Unusual cases, yes, but often more extreme examples are where we can test the outline of the principle.

I said earlier - and I note that no one arguing that it's always relevant to know all the information to consent actually addressed the specific type of encounter - anonymous sex in places like sex clubs. In some cases where you don't even see the other person, and where drug use is often part of the equation.

I find it very difficult in a situation where people are having multiple partners at once, are high, and may not actually even be able to see or identify some of their partners, that having a conversation about these kinds of details around consent is really relevant. In that situation, one mouth really is a lot like another, you don't know whose mouth it is anyway.

Now I don't think those situations are actually a healthy sexual environment, and I think it's notable that they are typically a male kind of activity to - but they are, apart from the drug use, legal. And I think you could make a pretty good argument that the rules for this sort of thing, the consent, is set up ahead of time simply by entering into the situation. I'm not saying that's the legal situation - I think that might be unclear actually - but I think it's the only reality possible in that kind of scenario.

Original poster
Clymene · 26/06/2021 21:15

In a mixed sex orgy - which is basically what you're describing @SmokedDuck - I would guess it would be pretty much impossible to only consent to sex with women. I have no idea how consent works in thar sort of environment.

A one to one encounter is different. Consent is given based on the sex of the participants. If someone would not consent if they knew you were the other sex, then they haven't consented.

I'm starting to feel a bit like a stuck record ...

OP posts:
SmokedDuck · 26/06/2021 22:49

@Clymene

In a mixed sex orgy - which is basically what you're describing *@SmokedDuck* - I would guess it would be pretty much impossible to only consent to sex with women. I have no idea how consent works in thar sort of environment.

A one to one encounter is different. Consent is given based on the sex of the participants. If someone would not consent if they knew you were the other sex, then they haven't consented.

I'm starting to feel a bit like a stuck record ...

No, I don't know how it works either, but it's not enough to just say "it's different".

If we are talking about the law, what it suggests is that either there is potentially a "buyer beware" element in sexual encounters, or situations like those common in sex clubs almost certainly involve illegal activity - something that might be also argued on the grounds of drug use.

If its the former and context is important, then there is a real discussion around how you draw those lines. The fact that there is a one on one situation seems relevant, I agree, but it also might be relevant whether it's a longer term association or a casual encounter, or whether the environment is one where a person might reasonably expect that the other person might be trans.

ArcheryAnnie · 26/06/2021 22:59

Consent is not consent if it's not fully informed.

Original poster
Clymene · 27/06/2021 06:08

I don't see how long term the encounter is has anything to do with it. If you wouldn't have sex with person A if you had known their sex, then you didn't consent.

There was a situation at a bathhouse in east London a couple of years ago where they kicked out a transman. Because they did not want to have sex with someone biologically female.

OP posts:
Arbadacarba · 27/06/2021 08:10

Isn't having your penis in someone's mouth genital contact?

I was referring (obviously, I would have thought, since Sood was receiving a blow job at the time) to the contact with the transwoman's genitals.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2021 08:35

People are going through all manner of logical contortions and equivocation to make it ok to deceive a sex partner about what sex you are. It's quite telling about how damaging it was to ever allow this lie that people are the opposite sex to take hold.

LolaSmiles · 27/06/2021 09:57

I can't believe in 2021 that free and informed consent is something people are struggling with.

Any move towards consent matters, but... is a worrying step.