So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

[ArabellaScott]

Hello, all.

What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?

What subjects does it investigate?

What aims does it have?

Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

I suppose it's just a coincidence then that virtually every thread on the other part is trans related?

It’s a hot topic, of course it’s going to be debated. There are changes in law and changes in women’s rights and accesses currently going through the courts and in the news.

As Freeble has demonstrated, there are other important conversations to have. That isn't what Freeble demonstrated.

What Freeble demonstrated is that there are various feminist voices. Nobody disputes that. Some of us engage in some of theose 'other important conversations' in real life in a way we cannot do with GC feminism.

Nobody ever got sacked, de-platformed, sidelined, cold shouldered for asking women to consider other women in different situations.

I can, and do, face some of those other important discussions daily. I get paid to do some of it, volunteer and thanked for the rest.

The few discussions I have had about GC issues got me blocked from netwrorking groups, ignored at meetings and, in one feminist support group, had my dues thrown back at me - literally had notes and coins flung in my face in front of the rest of the assembled group.

THIS is the only space I have to discuss GC issues. And I STILL have to do it anonymously, attached to a burner email that has no connection with my real life.

That's why I post about it so much here. I can't discuss it anywhere else. I CAN and do discuss race, class, socio-economic status and feminism every bloody day. I don't get threatened or disparaged for doing so.

And STILL that squeezing of my ability to talk about something that I see as important isn't enough for some, monitors etc.

Apart from I think one thread on the World Cup everything on "sex and gender" thread is trans related.

Because threads are being moved about according to their content/titles, and posters who also post threads about trans stuff are posting in the chat topic.

Should we have a NAMALT section too?
How about an ‘All Lives Matter’ section?

Tsssss.

@KimikosNightmare not sure I understand your point?

@jellybeansforbreakfast

As Freeble has demonstrated, there are other important conversations to have. That isn't what Freeble demonstrated.

What Freeble demonstrated is that there are various feminist voices. Nobody disputes that. Some of us engage in some of theose 'other important conversations' in real life in a way we cannot do with GC feminism.

Nobody ever got sacked, de-platformed, sidelined, cold shouldered for asking women to consider other women in different situations.

I can, and do, face some of those other important discussions daily. I get paid to do some of it, volunteer and thanked for the rest.

The few discussions I have had about GC issues got me blocked from netwrorking groups, ignored at meetings and, in one feminist support group, had my dues thrown back at me - literally had notes and coins flung in my face in front of the rest of the assembled group.

THIS is the only space I have to discuss GC issues. And I STILL have to do it anonymously, attached to a burner email that has no connection with my real life.

That's why I post about it so much here. I can't discuss it anywhere else. I CAN and do discuss race, class, socio-economic status and feminism every bloody day. I don't get threatened or disparaged for doing so.

And STILL that squeezing of my ability to talk about something that I see as important isn't enough for some, monitors etc.

100% this

I suppose it's just a coincidence then that virtually every thread on the other part is trans related?

We didn't ask for a new section, it was imposed on us. That "sex and gender" section was set up specifically to silo off all the trans related content so it's hardly surprising, is it? Women are posting other stuff in the chat thread, and MN are moving things about. Do you not understand what is going on here?

But what are these feminists issues which being female is not the main factor of?

Well, there are loads of conversations it's possible to have without the central focus being "what is a woman". And some of those conversations will cover issues which are more relevant to xx chromosome people (abortion rights, FGM, lack of support/understanding of menopause) but I find to be just less stressful if it doesn't start with some kind of semantic wrangling about trans people. And some won't, like conversations about the pressures on women to perform femininity, or the experience of Muslim feminists who want to wear the hijab and combine feminism with faith/culture. Where you could also shoehorn in trans stuff too, but it's just so much less exhausting to not.

Like I said elsewhere, I have these conversations in other spaces all the time and somehow we manage it without talking about trans people. It's absolutely doable.

It’s a hot topic

It's an echo chamber.

@Orf1abc

It’s a hot topic

It's an echo chamber.

It’s a feminist forum.

I don't think you have been squeezed, Jelly. I think you've been given a space and a voice which is precious.

What you don't like is no longer being able to dominate the wider space. I'd feel more sympathy if your discussions were being hampered by this but they're not. It's just made it easier to opt out for those who don't want to listen in but do want to discuss other issues related to feminism. That's a perfectly reasonable option for them to have and in no way sidelines you unless your goal was talking at people who didn't want to listen. You're free to make threads drawing whatever connections you like about any issue under the sun and GC arguments. No one who wants to be part of that will struggle to find you.

But people were always allowed to start threads on any topic of their choosing. They aren't 'trans' threads- it's women's rights. What can be more integral to feminism that's women's rights? Along with all the other issues such as misogyny, raising girls, the pay gap etc.

I’m not sure how many times the same thing has to be pointed out. The trans threads dominated the board. ‘Women’s rights’ is a much wider topic than ‘where they are affected by trans issues’.

I don’t think women who are angry and frightened about the way sex based rights are being eroded have dominated any space in society, let alone this tiny corner of the internet.

But I look forward to all the lively non GC topics coming soon. Hard to see how MN will police GC women having their say on any feminist thread, though. Unless it’s a #nodebate thing?

Gotta get back to work, but this is the crux of it:

‘Women’s rights’ is a much wider topic than ‘where they are affected by trans issues’.

You can’t have women’s rights if you don’t know what a woman is and can’t even use the word as it’s deemed offensive. I don’t know how many more times that can be pointed out!

How many times does it have to be pointed out that there were a lot of threads on sex/gender/trans because it is such a massive issue right now. Jellybeans summed it up perfectly- it's easy to discuss lots of the other issues in real life but saying that biological sex is reality in real life is akin to standing up on a plane mid flight and saying you have a bomb.

Freebleweeble it's interesting to hear your views and I'll respect your wish not to get into a bunfight and not detail where I agree/disagree.

I suppose what I struggle with is why you'd call it feminism. If the issue is that white women are oppressing black people of both sexes, wouldn't the cause seeking to address that be anti-racism?

To me, feminism is women's liberation - which would include the liberation of black women, but not black men. That isn't saying that black men aren't important or don't matter, just that the feminist movement isn't about them, or any other marginalised group of men. It's about women.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

How many times does it have to be pointed out that there were a lot of threads on sex/gender/trans because it is such a massive issue right now. Jellybeans summed it up perfectly- it's easy to discuss lots of the other issues in real life but saying that biological sex is reality in real life is akin to standing up on a plane mid flight and saying you have a bomb.

And that’s fair enough - so now there’s an entire topic for people who want to discuss the trans issue in relation to women’s rights.

How can we discuss abortion rights if we can't name the particular group of people who have this specific medical procedure?

I think I read it in New Scientist in an artiicle a few weeks ago about something and pregnacy and the new phraseology was something like:

pregnant people, this means women, transmen and any other other group like non-binary who can become pg.

It made me stop reading and seek out DH to point it out to him.

To me, feminism is women's liberation - which would include the liberation of black women, but not black men. That isn't saying that black men aren't important or don't matter, just that the feminist movement isn't about them, or any other marginalised group of men. It's about women.

I agree. Why are women the only group who aren't allowed a rights movement that focuses solely on them as a group?

Well, there are loads of conversations it's possible to have without the central focus being "what is a woman". And some of those conversations will cover issues which are more relevant to xx chromosome people (abortion rights, FGM, lack of support/understanding of menopause)

Totally agree but must point out that some of your subject choices might also be very much affected by what a woman is.
Campaigners against FGM have unfortunately been targeted by trans rights activists and the " what about the boys" brigade. In fact legislation to ban it in the USA has been scuppered by trans rights activists. So do we just ignore that?

@RoyalAcademyOfFarts

Gotta get back to work, but this is the crux of it:

‘Women’s rights’ is a much wider topic than ‘where they are affected by trans issues’.

You can’t have women’s rights if you don’t know what a woman is and can’t even use the word as it’s deemed offensive. I don’t know how many more times that can be pointed out!

Who doesn’t know what a woman is? Are you suggesting if I started a thread about smear tests people on mumsnet would be so confused by what I meant by ‘women’ they wouldn’t be able to respond?

And that’s fair enough - so now there’s an entire topic for people who want to discuss the trans issue in relation to women’s rights.

Which at least now has 'feminism' in its title clearly acknowledging that issues around sex and gender are integral to women's rights and feminism.

Because as we know @Pumperthepumper, we all have to have our line in sand as to what is acceptable around language!

"What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?"

Pretty much like marxism with the class struggle bit removed?

greenwhiteviolet

Why would you want to distance feminism from issues relating specifically to black women? Can you not handle the idea of an overlap? Are issues affecting disabled women also not considered to fall under the umbrella of feminism?

I don't know what you're trying to achieve, other than to shoulder every element except GC issues out of feminism simply to leave nothing standing but GC issues.

You are only demonstrating why these issues need to a space apart from someone with your attitudes.

Don't be so disingenuosu @Pumperthepumper

There have been many threads on just that.. as you welll know!