So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

[ArabellaScott]

Hello, all.

What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?

What subjects does it investigate?

What aims does it have?

Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

But to resurrect a point I made earlier, and to extend your metaphor, there's a danger that we end up with some form of Marxism that obsesses over definitions and the precise boundary between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, and loses sight of the struggle.

False equivalence. I am comfortable with fuzziness at the very edges of definitions. What I am not comfortable about is saying that a fine border of fuzziness at the edge means the entire classification is thrown away. It’s like saying because there’s different lines for high and low tide, some mountains are actually oceans. And I think switching the focus of Feminism from sex to self-defined gender is the latter.

For me this new Chat board will be positive if it means we can talk about the reality of sexism, which for almost all women does include our lives and common experiences as female people, and the oppressive nature of gendered social roles, without a chorus of “not all women have vaginas and not every person with a vagina is a woman”, because the “does a woman have a vagina or not” comments belong on the other board regardless of from which side of the debate you are making them.

It will be negative if it becomes a place where any mention of female bodies in relation to sexist constructions is unmentionable.

Who doesn’t know what a woman is? Are you suggesting if I started a thread about smear tests people on mumsnet would be so confused by what I meant by ‘women’ they wouldn’t be able to respond?

Apparently woman is a gender term these days, so if we mean adult human female, then we need to say "adult human female" as "women" includes trans women.

My-arse-it-does

Personally I don't want my identity to be determined by my reproductive organs.

Oh and the absolute hilarious irony of this statement here. Yeah neither do we- hence wishing to be known as WOMEN and not menstruators or vagina havers.

@Leafstamp

Who doesn’t know what a woman is? Are you suggesting if I started a thread about smear tests people on mumsnet would be so confused by what I meant by ‘women’ they wouldn’t be able to respond?

Apparently woman is a gender term these days, so if we mean adult human female, then we need to say "adult human female" as "women" includes trans women.

My-arse-it-does

Says who?

I thought you were all welcoming new posters with smiley faces and things jelly ? Or do you not really expect any new posters at all?

The level of disingenuousness is staggering.

* I won't be returning to debate you on any of this, so don't bother @ me. I'm familiar with your views and I'm not offended I'm just bored of hearing them.I for one am very grateful to MNHQ for creating a space for other feminist topics.*

The more feminist topics the better as far as I am concerned and nice to see a new poster on the board. I don't know who you were replying to but I would ask you to reconsider leaving the feminist boards as we need a broad range of opinion. We might disagree but that's what debate is all about.

I mean, who gave GC feminists the right to decide who a woman is? You are entitled to your opinion as are the rest of us.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But some views are more grounded in fact, than others.

Pumper: not so easy. There are special restrictions on what can be said, which only apply to The Debate. Check out the other feminist board & you'll find them at the top, I think. They used to be at the top of this board list of contents.

If you are not actively seeking to dismantle our white supremacy culture, in every forum of your life, in every space, then you are upholding it. Even if I lived in an entirely white space there are so so many things I could do that would help to build an anti-racist culture.

This, exactly.

If you have never heard of 'white feminism' or 'white women's tears', if you are not aware of how white feminists in the past have supported imperial and racist ideologies, or how women of colour are marginalised and ignored in today's feminist narratives and movements, then you need to start googling.

See I actually don't think that anyone actually decides who a woman is. It's not an opinion. It's- what's that word again? B-I-O-L-O-G-Y!

Thanks for the Girls Aloud earworm!

Oh bloody hell @Ereshkigalangcleg I didn't think of that and now have it stuck in my head too 😂

I think you need to keep looking @dreamingbohemian

The reason that the 'TWAW' idea is such a hot topic is because it has the potential to exacerbate many of those huge challenges facing women that you care about.

Eg Male sex offenders in womens prisons, men competing in women's sport and professional awards, prizes, grants, board seats. There are no advantages for women in redefining what a woman is, and a great many for men.

I don't think any of the GC feminists on these boards want to be giving trans ideology a second's thought! It is the precise issues that you've highlighted that they care about too, namely safeguarding women and girls, protecting hard fought for rights and recognition, and levelling the playing field professionally and socially.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I mean, who gave GC feminists the right to decide who a woman is? You are entitled to your opinion as are the rest of us.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But some views are more grounded in fact, than others.

How will users of this board know what anyone means when they use the word 'women'? How will discussions work when everyone will have a different idea of who they're talking about? Does it matter? Maybe it doesn't. Who knows?

Does it invalidate the purpose of this board split, if users here declare that they include TW in the word women? Haven't we got back to The Debate again? Shouldn't those people be on the 'S&G Debate' board, since they're talking about this & arguing with other people?

For me this new Chat board will be positive if it means we can talk about the reality of sexism, which for almost all women does include our lives and common experiences as female people, and the oppressive nature of gendered social roles, without a chorus of “not all women have vaginas and not every person with a vagina is a woman”, because the “does a woman have a vagina or not” comments belong on the other board regardless of from which side of the debate you are making them.

It will be negative if it becomes a place where any mention of female bodies in relation to sexist constructions is unmentionable.

This, I am reserving judgement to see how it pans out. I have my ideas but trying to keep an open mind.

Dreaming bohemian , it may seem disingenuous or pedantic to you, but asking what feminism looks like if you cannot define your terms is a fundamental question. The "trans debate" presents challenges to feminism, which the GC position addresses and liberal feminism fails.

So as I go about my day, working in a male dominated industry, living in our patriarchy-shaped world, ranting about all the total bullshit that women have to put up constantly, I do not stop to obsess about trans issues. I don't agonise about other people's private anatomy. I care very deeply about the oppression of women and I simply don't care if someone was born a woman or decided to join us at a later date. But this seems disingenuous to me. You imply that to know the difference between a transwoman and a woman is "agonising about private anatomy" - but equally you suggest that you know the difference between men and women, since it's the former who are dominating your industry. So that's a red herring, no?

At some level feminism needs to know which people it is fighting for. I agree that there are huge unwon battles for us to take on, and where gender ideology hasn't penetrated far enough to make an impact, it might be wearing to discuss it ad nauseam (if that's what it looks like to you) - but I genuinely don't see how you can be a feminist without having a definition of women which doesn't recognise people's inability to identify in or out of their oppression.

@ifIwerenotanandroid

Pumper: not so easy. There are special restrictions on what can be said, which only apply to The Debate. Check out the other feminist board & you'll find them at the top, I think. They used to be at the top of this board list of contents.

Here, you mean?

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

[quote Leafstamp]@Pumperthepumper

Who says women includes trans women? The TRAs do IME. Have you not seen this?[/quote]
You’re suggesting that if i start a thread in feminist chat about smear tests I have to say ‘women and trans women’ - and I’m saying, that’s bollocks.

I'll try:

Why is the area you live so white? Rural, low socio-economic status, poor public transport and other amenities. But as I said, lots of other nationalities who come for seasonal work. As the neighbouring city gets more and more overcrowded more and more BAME families are moving out here but they are few and far between at the moment

What is the history of your area in regards to slavery/ colonialism? That's a no brainer, I am English. But I do question the current relevance of some of what is impuned by that question. But that's a whole different and quiet esoteric topic.

What is the history of your country? You mean before or after it was colonised by the French, Danes etc? Pre or post religious upheaval. Pre or post industrial revolution? Even a colonial country can hae a colonised past (hence that esoteric discussion I mentioned )

What are the places in your life you hold influence that you could build an anti-racist culture? My hearth, my home

What do you teach the people who learn from you about your history and our cultures history when it comes to race? In my youth I was colour blind. Brought up on Kumbaya and The Child is Black the Child is White in one fo the most, at that time, racially integrated cities in the UK. These days I am learning, because I am self aware enough to know that this is no longer deemed helpful and I respect the viewpoint of those directly affected by that.

Meanwhile, in real life, daily, I can reassure every BAME woman I meet that she can speak freely and that we will have appropriate support for her, whatever her need. I don't deal with BAME men on a daily basis (they tend not to access food banks, women in medical centres or DV refuges) but colleagues deal with them in much the same manner, in spaces they do make contact.

Oh! I lie, I run a cooking class for men, dads and kids, in that nearby city. We do have BAME men in that! We discuss the melange of UK culinary delights. That bastardisation of curry etc. Uncommon, common ground, so to speak.

What Do you have in your life that is good for you, that requires other people to suffer in order for you to have access? Nothing that is not essential to modern living in the UK. You are talking to an old fashioned woolly liberal that has always tithed her time for others. Brought up in poverty (real poverty, hungry, lacking proper clothing, heating etc). I don't buy fast food, fast fashion etc etc. I shop local, eat seasonally and locally.

I may not have been the best person to ask

@dreamingbohemian

If you are not actively seeking to dismantle our white supremacy culture, in every forum of your life, in every space, then you are upholding it. Even if I lived in an entirely white space there are so so many things I could do that would help to build an anti-racist culture.

This, exactly.

If you have never heard of 'white feminism' or 'white women's tears', if you are not aware of how white feminists in the past have supported imperial and racist ideologies, or how women of colour are marginalised and ignored in today's feminist narratives and movements, then you need to start googling.

Please don't assume we're all ignorant. Or white.

@deathbypostitnote

I thought you were all welcoming new posters with smiley faces and things jelly ? Or do you not really expect any new posters at all?

The level of disingenuousness is staggering.

And that's the root of the problem isn't it?

You see my perspective as what, overly enthusiastic because I have tried to explain in detail. Or maybe it is disingenuous because I am not a welcoming committee.

And I have no idea whether you are arguing in good faith because you are a new poster, newly namechanged and have not expressed any opinion other than to chastise me and other GC posters.

TALK TO ME! Don't berate me like some well meaning aunty!

Also, whoever it was (@GreenWhiteViolet?) that said that "feminism" which centres the fight against racism is vital but not feminism is spot on. These things intersect. They are not the same. Women are allowed to focus on women.

Pumper: that looks like the one.

@ifIwerenotanandroid Where did I assume everyone was ignorant and white?

I said if you are not aware of these things then do some research.