So Mumsnet ignored our request to have something to do with 'feminism' or 'women' in the name of the 'naughty step' subtopic

[StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind]

So we now have

Feminist Chat (which was our space anyway)

Sex and gender debate

If they had to go ahead with this spineless nonsense plan, many of us on the preferred names thread suggested it was essential to include feminism in the naughty step topic. You cannot take the debate on sex/gender away from feminism.

I think my suggestion was:

Feminism: Women's Sex Based Rights

LibFem

So not only are they ignoring us and forging ahead with this crap, they've removed any relationship to feminism and women from the subtopic name.

Absolutely disgusted. This feels so reminiscent of the erasure of the word 'women' in so many contexts. To take the word feminist out of this subtopic- @MNHQ can you explain this? Because it's awful.

Quite sinister to mention finances actually.

'W*men' toe the line because we're losing money in the name of your limited freedom to discuss issues deeply relevant to your lives.

Or did I misunderstand that @MNHQ?

I must admit the it’s costing us line is a bit off to me too

@OldLang

Quite sinister to mention finances actually.

'W*men' toe the line because we're losing money in the name of your limited freedom to discuss issues deeply relevant to your lives.

Or did I misunderstand that @MNHQ?

Sinister? I'm just trying to be honest with you. There's a reason why other platforms have stopped housing this debate and it is because of finances - it costs them money - in terms of lost ad revenue, resources to moderate and the cost of staff upset/recruitment. There's also an unknown reputational cost.

If the number of words is an issue then 'Feminism: sex and gender' for me. I don't think the word 'debate' is doing much heavy work in this context - this is already a discussion board.

It’s not any longer though - not as far as Google are concerned anyway.

So after some rechecking on the long title thing it turns out we were mistaken (thanks Empress) - it's not long names that are an issue it's long urls - crossed wires here. So we've reverted to Feminism: Sex and gender debate and Feminism: Chat as the two topic names.

Remove debate?

It’ll be shorter and it’s really not necessary

Thanks. I think that's an improvement but I agree that debate is superfluous as debate/discussion is a given on an internet forum.

The trans widows threads aren't a debate. Their experiences aren't an opinion or point of view that they need to "get over" or accept, or change and feel happier about.

There needs to be very serious consideration about where those threads go, or the title of the board.

I reall appreciate the dialogue here though Justine, I'm borderline considering premium.

(It's just I decided to patreon the detrans charity over premium last time.)

@JustineMumsnet
I appreciate your continuing engagement on this topic. I am another one who doesn’t feel debate adds anything in the title. It is clear that the board will be a discussion without it needing the word debate.

The main reason I have premium membership is a recognition that there is a cost to MN of maintaining this discussion. Hopefully the tide is turning especially after the RA / JdW farce.

I too appreciate the continued engagement @JustineMumsnet.

‘Debate’ needs to go. I’d also be much happier if gender is got rid of. It isn’t relevant.

@JustineMumsnet

So after some rechecking on the long title thing it turns out we were mistaken (thanks Empress) - it's not long names that are an issue it's long urls - crossed wires here. So we've reverted to Feminism: Sex and gender debate and Feminism: Chat as the two topic names.

So if I want to start a thread about a Sex/gender issue, not looking for a debate, only advice or support. I can put it in "feminism chat"?

Males have raped females in female prisons.

Males have removed safety measures in female sports and been responsible for serious injuries like fractured skulls while using social media to claim they enjoyed it.

Males have destroyed the reputation of females who stand up for our legally recognised sex based rights while verbally abusing them and threatening sexual assault.

Males continue to murder females daily (and abuse the females who post on this very site for help, guidance and support).

Males who identify as women continue to offend at the same levels as males who identity with bullshit socially constructed stereotypes and prejudices masculine gender norms.

I'm more interested in those consequences.
There is no debate. Using that word implies a legitimacy in allowing all these things to continue to happen and supporting the removal of females' 'sex based rights' (a phrase coincidentally less words than "sex and gender debate" ).

I too appreciate Justine engaging here but I do wish that the communication around this change had been better. Casually dropping it into a different thread was bad enough but then there was no actual confirmation that the change was going ahead and nothing to let users know that the board was being split yesterday.
Just comes over to me as very dismissive of users.
And please drop 'Debate''.

My opinion on this has hardened overnight. I didn’t mind yesterday but then I read a comment by a PP that this is like having a section labelled Race and Eugenics, and overnight I have changed my mind. It is offensive to call the feminism section Gender when gender is the construct that has been used to oppress us all for millennia and is particularly pernicious right now.

MNHQ you have made a huge error here. This is offensive.

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

My opinion on this has hardened overnight. I didn’t mind yesterday but then I read a comment by a PP that this is like having a section labelled Race and Eugenics, and overnight I have changed my mind. It is offensive to call the feminism section Gender when gender is the construct that has been used to oppress us all for millennia and is particularly pernicious right now.

MNHQ you have made a huge error here. This is offensive.

Interesting point. It rankles with me and perhaps this is why.

@OldLang

Males have raped females in female prisons.

Males have removed safety measures in female sports and been responsible for serious injuries like fractured skulls while using social media to claim they enjoyed it.

Males have destroyed the reputation of females who stand up for our legally recognised sex based rights while verbally abusing them and threatening sexual assault.

Males continue to murder females daily (and abuse the females who post on this very site for help, guidance and support).

Males who identify as women continue to offend at the same levels as males who identity with bullshit socially constructed stereotypes and prejudices masculine gender norms.

I'm more interested in those consequences.
There is no debate. Using that word implies a legitimacy in allowing all these things to continue to happen and supporting the removal of females' 'sex based rights' (a phrase coincidentally less words than "sex and gender debate" ).

Wow, well said. I wish we could blow up these facts and plaster them on billboards across the country and take out ad space in all the newspapers, people need to wake up to what's going on.

It is offensive to call the feminism section Gender when gender is the construct that has been used to oppress us all for millennia and is particularly pernicious right now.

This should be acknowledged MNHQ.

Good we now have feminism . Gender and debate unnecessary in my view.

I think sex-based feminism would be better still (even though it should be entirely obvious...).

But then it indicates the chat isn't sex based.

@JustineMumsnet

So after some rechecking on the long title thing it turns out we were mistaken (thanks Empress) - it's not long names that are an issue it's long urls - crossed wires here. So we've reverted to Feminism: Sex and gender debate and Feminism: Chat as the two topic names.

Happy to help.

Well that would be correct in context of ‘inclusive of...’

Sinister? I'm just trying to be honest with you. There's a reason why other platforms have stopped housing this debate and it is because of finances - it costs them money - in terms of lost ad revenue, resources to moderate and the cost of staff upset/recruitment. There's also an unknown reputational cost

In decades to come, when women are protected in their employment because of the decision in Maya’s case, and thousands of girls don’t get put on testosterone because of the Keira Bell judgment, the analysis will show these two women were supported by this forum (both post here) and people will know of the impact of Mumsnet. These are monumentally important legal rulings. This forum has educated me to such an extent I have directly challenged the medical affirmative pathway for children locally and so far prevented a handful (so far) of children following the same regrettable pathway Keira did.

So the next time some woke staff member complains about how mean we all are and how upset it makes them, next time an ad company passes up the opportunity to advertise to millions of users who believe in biological reality because they don’t want to upset some men on Twitter, even if Mumsnet’s finances are utterly dire, just remember you’ve been hosting a forum that has undoubtedly done good that will last for a very, very long time .

Failing that I think gender critical feminism would be my next best option.

As pp have mentioned, sex-based rights could arguably be a tad too narrow in scope.