Self-ID and racism question

[headintheproverbial]

I was just pondering this morning about the whole 'TWAW' argument and got to thinking about several people over recent years who have lost jobs / been massively criticised for identifying as another race.

So there was an American college professor who had built a career teaching African American studies who had presented herself as Black and was absolutely demolished (quite rightly probably) when it came out that she wasn't. Lost her job, abused on Twitter etc etc.

And yet when a man suddenly decides he's a woman we have to just jump on that and accept it as fact?

Is the difference simply... you know men vs women? Or is it more nuanced in a way I haven't considered. Because if it isn't more nuanced it might be an interesting argument to use.

@CrazyNeighbour

How many have not just been abused on line but have been attacked, assaulted, murdered, taken their own lives !!

Can I ask, does this mean you prioritize the group that is more likely to be murdered, assaulted, etc. or to die by suicide. So if there are groups more likely to be murdered than Transwomen then you would believe that that other group should be prioritized and Transwomen therefore deprioritised? Or do you believe that Transwomen should be prioritised regardless of the likelihood of them being murdered?

When did I ask for anybody to be prioritised ? No one should be attacked, murdered or driven to suicide

@Erikrie

There is plenty of evidence available online, I prefer not to seek it out.

Well what a surprise that is 😲

I'm sorry if you can't grasp why I would rather not seek it out!

@Helleofabore

So.... no answers to the OP's question then? Even after people have explained why the significance of the focus on males vs females?

Just distraction and derailment?

plus ca change

? Who are aiming that at?

Ooh so many squirrels on this thread, fancy that

Back to the subject at hand, why is it that when a real question is being asked, and the answers are pretty obvious the response is to discuss anything but the subject at hand?

Or is that a stupid question?

An oppresive class identifying into the class they have traditionally oppressed perpetuates that oppression, an oppressed class identifying out of their oppressed clas does nothing to change the oppression of that class. Its lose / lose for the oppressed class.

@Helleofabore

So.... no answers to the OP's question then? Even after people have explained why the significance of the focus on males vs females?

Just distraction and derailment?

plus ca change

Yep. Distraction and derailment. It never ceases to dismay me (though I should be used to it by now) that posters take the bait and participate in derailing.

posters take the bait and participate in derailing

Guilty!

I’m going to return to the original question, if that’s OK.

I haven’t seen any clear argument as to why being transgender is notably different to being transracial. (Of course they’re not entirely the same, because these sort of comparisons never entirely hold up.) I suspect there's a large overlap between the group of people who firmly believe TWAW/TMAM and the group of people who were pretty cathing in their denunciation of Rachel Dolezal and Jessica Krug, and I don't find those positions consistent. Jessica Krug wrote a grovelling apology here that I found quite painful to read. By her own admission, she had been battling with mental health issues.

While I don't agree that male people can be women, or female people can be men, I at least feel that transgender people are worthy of compassion, particularly if they suffer from gender dysphoria (and are not demanding that others participate in their belief). But it felt to me that there was a distinct lack of compassion and #bekind for Jessica Krug,and perhaps also Rachel Dolezal.

I've seen an argument that transgenderism is not the same as transracialism, because racial inequality is built up over generations. While that's true, I don't see what difference that makes here, and presumably would mean that it's equally acceptable to be transabled.

Then there's this Guardian opinion piece that argues that trans women don't identifiy as women - they are women, whereas Rachel Dolezal only identifies as black; transracialism is a choice, whereas transgenderism isn't. But I think the writer is only saying that because they don't accept that it's possible to be transracial - so it's a circular argument.

Can I ask for transracial , is this primarily people from dominant group identity as less powerful group?

There was also a community in America that identified as ? Black American even though they appear white , the justification being that their community is treated as a black community because their ancestors were black
Their community suffers systematic discrimination, less investment, less chance of jobs etc as historically it was black

In the cases quoted both are white women claiming to be black.

midgemagneto From the examples I've seen, yes. One of the responses is along the lines of the fact that black people aren't able to simply "identify out of being black" i.e. out of oppression. And that racial inequality is something that black people experience on a level that a white person identifying as black could never appreciate. The same arguments are made about women and trans women.

It's interesting to me because not many people would make the point that race is real in any meaningful way other than how you are treated by society. People can be any shade on a rather large spectrum. And yet we instinctively understand that appropriating someone's race in a society that does treat people differently on the colour of their skin is wrong.

But something like an actual vagina we can pretend is a social fucking construct.

I suppose the difference might be that there have always been transgender people across many different cultures. However, as far as I am aware none of these groups actually thought they had changed sex in the biological sense but only in the social sense and often to make homosexual relationships acceptable within these communities. The TWAW TMAM mantra is a very modern concept and in this case is similar to people identifying as being of another race.

I have often pondered the idea of a transblack twitter account, a white person identifying as black and relying on stereotypical depictions of being black to do so.

Imasoulman

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
@Imasoulman

The comparison between cultural appropriation and specifically trans women is valid because females are the oppressed group of people. Females have fought hard to win their rights, have access to scholarships etc. similar to the current battle BAME people are fighting to access the same rights and privileges.
Females are the oppressed group which males (trans women) are identifying as.
BAME are the oppressed group and who people such as RD are identifying as.

Op is comparing like for like.
The oppressors identifying as the oppressed.
Yes ok I can accept what you are saying.

However I still feel the post was trying to vilify trans women

It’s not about vilifying any males. It’s about drawing a comparison between why one oppressed group are supposed to be welcoming of their oppressors identifying as them to their own detriment, whereas the other group can express their upset and be supported in taking measures to ensure it doesn’t happen.
If you believe that this vilifies trans women, then surely by extension, you should believe that calling out people such as RD vilifies white people.

@DavidTheDog

I have often pondered the idea of a transblack twitter account, a white person identifying as black and relying on stereotypical depictions of being black to do so.

Whilst I would love to see that, I would fear for your personal safety tbh.

What do people think about Ali G? That was seen as mainstream and acceptable comedy not that long ago. Is it now hateful cultural appropriation? I guess on both a racial and class level?

Does anyone know if Bunbury has given out invites for tea? Just a reminder in case

@Siblingquandary

My very TWAW family say it's not the same because gender is a spectrum, cultural appropriation um... y'know... no?

That is hilarious. Gender is a spectrum but race isn't? When we are all mixed race - all of us. How do they explain this, or is there no debate to be had because that would involve critical thinking and logic.

Hi there OP. I am having a good think about this, a weird dichotomy.

I think its obvious why there is a focus on transwomen. It's the self identifying as an oppressed group member which is the problem. There would be no such outcry if a black person self identified as white though that would not stop them being discriminated against. When you identify as an oppressed group member you both minimise and hide their struggle.

Whilst I would love to see that, I would fear for your personal safety tbh.

Quite! That's why I've always been too cowardly to try it.

@Cowbells
My mother has recently agreed that "no debate" is wrong. I think if she delved a bit deeper she may see my point of view more clearly, she's empathetic and highly intelligent.

The males in my family are far too emotional to talk to about it.

What do people think about Ali G? That was seen as mainstream and acceptable comedy not that long ago. Is it now hateful cultural appropriation? I guess on both a racial and class level?

Ali G is complicated because I think part of the aim of the character was to mock white people appropriating black culture. (And also to enjoy the discomfort of his white middle class "victims" squirm with uncertainty when he says "Is it because I is black?")

@BlueBrush

What do people think about Ali G? That was seen as mainstream and acceptable comedy not that long ago. Is it now hateful cultural appropriation? I guess on both a racial and class level?

Ali G is complicated because I think part of the aim of the character was to mock white people appropriating black culture. (And also to enjoy the discomfort of his white middle class "victims" squirm with uncertainty when he says "Is it because I is black?")

Yes I thought Ali G was a parody of cultural appropriation before cultural appropriation was a thing, rather than a prosody of ethnic minorities.

Yes I thought Ali G was a parody of cultural appropriation before cultural appropriation was a thing, rather than a prosody of ethnic minorities

But do you think it would be viewed in the same light now? I feel like in the current environment that nuanced critique would be steamrolled over. Maybe not, I guess Borat was released pretty recently and didn’t come in for much flack.