Self-ID and racism question

[headintheproverbial]

I was just pondering this morning about the whole 'TWAW' argument and got to thinking about several people over recent years who have lost jobs / been massively criticised for identifying as another race.

So there was an American college professor who had built a career teaching African American studies who had presented herself as Black and was absolutely demolished (quite rightly probably) when it came out that she wasn't. Lost her job, abused on Twitter etc etc.

And yet when a man suddenly decides he's a woman we have to just jump on that and accept it as fact?

Is the difference simply... you know men vs women? Or is it more nuanced in a way I haven't considered. Because if it isn't more nuanced it might be an interesting argument to use.

[Cailleach1]

It is always the right time for a bit of Shakespeare.
'A rose by any other name ... .'

[Helleofabore]

The difference between males vs females who identify as the opposite sex, is that the rights for women were set up as protections to women for the discrimination they experience for having a sexed body that is formed for specific reproductive purposes.

Transmen are female and should have access to those rights and protections. Therefore there are impact on those rights and protections, but they are minimal compared to the impacts of males seeking to access those rights and protections. Males seeking to access those rights and protections diminish those rights and protections and therefore undermine them.

All trans people require their own set of rights and protections and that is where the focus should be. The discussion around spectrums, or why the focus on males, are a distraction from this OP.

The question is: why are people demanding access to the rights for females considered different to those seeking access to the rights for other minority groups?

A classic example of this is the case that OP mentioned of someone leveraging their presentation as someone who is black when they were not, but was in a position of being able to influence policy.

What is the difference between this person and a person who recently transitioned to being a woman and yet is in a women's officer role at either university or in a political party and has influence over policy for all women?

[AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]

@Siblingquandary

My very TWAW family say it's not the same because gender is a spectrum, cultural appropriation um... y'know... no?

Which is crazy because race is a spectrum and sex is binary.
I’m not arsed about gender.

[BlackForestCake]

Maybe you could research how many transwomen and men have lost their jobs, their friends and families. How many have not just been abused on line but have been attacked, assaulted, murdered, taken their own lives !!

Go on then, tell us, as you’ve clearly done the research. How many trans people have been murdered in the UK since, say, 2018?

[AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]

@Imasoulman

The comparison between cultural appropriation and specifically trans women is valid because females are the oppressed group of people. Females have fought hard to win their rights, have access to scholarships etc. similar to the current battle BAME people are fighting to access the same rights and privileges.
Females are the oppressed group which males (trans women) are identifying as.
BAME are the oppressed group and who people such as RD are identifying as.

Op is comparing like for like.
The oppressors identifying as the oppressed.

[AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]

@BlackForestCake

Maybe you could research how many transwomen and men have lost their jobs, their friends and families. How many have not just been abused on line but have been attacked, assaulted, murdered, taken their own lives !!

Go on then, tell us, as you’ve clearly done the research. How many trans people have been murdered in the UK since, say, 2018?

And then please compare this with the number of females who were murdered in that same time period.

[Flapjak]

What are the biological differences between average sizes males and females? My understanding is hormones, skeleton, lung capacity, heart and brain size, skin, vocal chords, genitals, womb, ovaries, fallopian tubes, mammary glands, adipose tissue.

Sex is definately not a spectrum. You are either male or female.
How any woman, especially one that that has gone through pregnancy and childbirth or has ever been sexually harrassed or abused by a male can ever doubt this absolutely astounds me. Yes there are 'feminine' men that exist that with a heap of hormones and surgery may pass in a crowd as female but these are exceptional' but it still does not make them female' they are transgender

[RobinMoiraWhite]

@WarriorN

"Cis" is an offensive word Soul

But I thought after the EAT judgment in Forstater the GC position is that ‘offence’ is fine and expression of belief, including a belief in gender identity, was protected?

Or have I misunderstood?

[FOJN]

Maybe you could research how many transwomen and men have lost their jobs, their friends and families. How many have not just been abused on line but have been attacked, assaulted, murdered, taken their own lives !!

This would be a complete derail, the thread is about why it's appropriation and offensive for anyone to claim to be trans racial but the same arguement doesn't apply to transgender.

[Imasoulman]

@Clymene

Please do link to some sources for this dreadful epidemic of violence against transpeople *@Imasoulman*

I was under the impression that violence against transpeople was thankfully very rare.

I don't need to link sources I can tell you about my dad who used to "punish" me for trying to express myself. The time I was beaten kicked and punched on a night out.
The sexual assault on a train.
The time my friend was hospitalised after being attacked.

There is plenty of evidence available online, I prefer not to seek it out.

[Helleofabore]

The difficulty for research into how many women lost their jobs/promotions due to being women and having the ability to be pregnant or just being considered 'not as good as men' as per the study done by the Veterinarian group are usually on the light side of statistical reliability.

Because most women know that it has happened but feel powerless to do anything about it, so they won't. They will simply try to get another role and move on.

So, I think a comparison of the two groups is worthless.

Absolutely worthless because how many women would even be arsed to self - report the amount of discrimination they have dealt with in a survey or a study.

[midgemagneto]

See is that transphobia in action or plain old gender discrimination because you didn't fit his restrictive notions of gender

Women typically want to solve this problem as much as you

Women get beaten and harmed if they don't comply to the restrictions...you will be the submissive wife
And they get beaten and harmed when they do...bloody tart was asking for it

[Erikrie]

Maybe you could research how many transwomen and men have lost their jobs, their friends and families. How many have not just been abused on line but have been attacked, assaulted, murdered, taken their own lives !!

Do post your research. I'm sure we'd all be very interested to see it. In the UK transwomen are one of the safest groups of all. More transwomen kill others than are killed. In line with male pattern violence.

Transmen however are women. Women are regularly harassed, assaulted, murdered, by men. Does your research show that transmen are being treated just like other women because they are transmen? Or because they are women?

[midgemagneto]

I guess what I am saying is it isn't transgender that caused the harm but ge der

[Erikrie]

There is plenty of evidence available online, I prefer not to seek it out.

Well what a surprise that is 😲

[AlfonsoTheMango]

This thread risks being derailed by whatabouttery. It' happens all of the time.

[Helleofabore]

soulman I am sorry that you have experienced such violence in your life.

I think you are describing things that many of us have experienced or our friends or families have experienced. But from my personal perspective, the violence was because me, my mother, my sister were females. My family members were raped because they were females.

I could go on but it is not a morbid and pointless competition.

But the point is that we, as women, fully understand the voilence that males perpetrate. And we understand that some of this is directed at others who they perceive as different.

It does not however mean that female's don't need their very own protections that are separate to trans people's though.

[Erikrie]

But I thought after the EAT judgment in Forstater the GC position is that ‘offence’ is fine and expression of belief, including a belief in gender identity, was protected?

Or have I misunderstood?

How's that book going Robin? Out of date so soon after publication? Planning to update it to reflect that gender critical beliefs are protected legally? 😉

[WarriorN]

The word isn't used here Robin. You should know that by now...

[WarriorN]

The original question is about the double standards of it not being acceptable to self identify as a black person, when you've been born white, verses being able to self identify as a female when youve been born a male.

Transwomen examples were used purely because men have many advantages in the broadly white western patricarchal society we are in (as well as across pretty much all societies.) And in "western" societies, white people have, through historic and institutional racism, also had many advantages, purely through their birth biology.

It's very simplistic as we know there are many nuances and other complexities; but effectively comes down to the fact you can't identify as something you biologically aren't.

And yes, it's double standards.

[Helleofabore]

So.... no answers to the OP's question then? Even after people have explained why the significance of the focus on males vs females?

Just distraction and derailment?

plus ca change

[WarriorN]

There are huge numbers of trans men, you can read posts on here on a daily basis about young women coming out as trans.
Its virtually a bloody epidemic.

Interesting choice of words, a certain poster here is mates with Global Butterflies, mentioned in this thread.

St Pauls School ditches the title "Head Girl" - The Times 19/06/21 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4274714-St-Pauls-School-ditches-the-title-Head-Girl-The-Times-19-06-21

[Imasoulman]

[quote AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]@Imasoulman

The comparison between cultural appropriation and specifically trans women is valid because females are the oppressed group of people. Females have fought hard to win their rights, have access to scholarships etc. similar to the current battle BAME people are fighting to access the same rights and privileges.
Females are the oppressed group which males (trans women) are identifying as.
BAME are the oppressed group and who people such as RD are identifying as.

Op is comparing like for like.
The oppressors identifying as the oppressed.[/quote]
Yes ok I can accept what you are saying.

However I still feel the post was trying to vilify trans women

[Helleofabore]

Ok.

Any comment on the premise of what OP posted?