Self-ID and racism question

[headintheproverbial]

I was just pondering this morning about the whole 'TWAW' argument and got to thinking about several people over recent years who have lost jobs / been massively criticised for identifying as another race.

So there was an American college professor who had built a career teaching African American studies who had presented herself as Black and was absolutely demolished (quite rightly probably) when it came out that she wasn't. Lost her job, abused on Twitter etc etc.

And yet when a man suddenly decides he's a woman we have to just jump on that and accept it as fact?

Is the difference simply... you know men vs women? Or is it more nuanced in a way I haven't considered. Because if it isn't more nuanced it might be an interesting argument to use.

[MrsBunHat]

Sorry yes it’s not a good thing in that it’s offensive to Koreans - just that it’s good if via things like this, more people start to join the dots about how “identify as” does not equal “is”.

[WarriorN]

Just came to post about oli.

"Fetishising Koreans" comment...

[Helleofabore]

Their (oli) identifying as a Korean has offended a great many people.

[MrsBunHat]

Wow at that Oli person. Well one thing I can say having looked at that is that a white Brit having lots of surgery to try to look Korean doesn't seem to work in the least.

I suppose this is inevitable and a good thing in that it just highlights the absurdity of the whole identity juggernaut. Well at least I really hope so, and that it doesn't go the other way instead.

[WotgunShedding]

Oli London now identifies as a non binary Korean

www.indy100.com/celebrities/oli-london-twitter-korean-non-binary-b1870491

[Charley50]

I do think it's time that women's oppression was taught in schools. It needs a higher profile. Of course it's been deliberately downplayed in the last couple of decades, and see where that has got us.,

[Charley50]

@MrsBunHat

And then imagine if the people who performed all that insulting imitation of black stereotypes not only insisted they actually WERE literally black, and demanded to be given access to black literary prizes, grants, jobs in black organisations etc., but that people everywhere actually did take them seriously and started giving them these rights and accesses and writing them into law? And if, as a black person, you objected, you were cast as the evil bigot and stood to lose your job, and were subject to threats of death, rape and violence on twitter? But these threats were ignored by the police but if you dared to say "trans black people aren't black" then YOU could get investigated?

Starting to sound unpleasant at all? And perhaps deeply racist?

^^
This. Exactly. And it's so obvious. Yet we are supposed to ignore it and pretend it's all ok. Fuck that shit.

[MrsBunHat]

I feel sorry for her too, because she struggles to accept her biology, and that must be hard - and the abuse must be hard too. Likewise I feel sorry for anyone who is dysphoric about their sexed body. The difference is that because generally people don’t pander to Dolezal’s identity, she doesn’t get to change public policy and bully and threaten black people and take their provisions and spaces.

[KihoBebiluPute]

@guinnessguzzler

I feel very sorry for Rachel Dolezal. Of course what she did was awful, but when you understand her early life and family situation you can see how it all played out. It's very sad but it doesn't mean the rest of the world should tell her she is, in fact, African American.

What can we do, then? Accept her for who she is, let her get on with living her life, and draw the line at her taking roles, spaces or support set aside only for black people, or BME people more generally, who require certain protections and support due to centuries of discrimination and oppression. That seems both fair and compassionate to me.

I would feel sorry for her if her response to the outrage at her behaviour had been to stop, apologise and change her behaviour for the future. However a quick look at the "About Rachel" section on her own website shows she is still very much misrepresenting herself and clearly intends to keep doing so.

[Erikrie]

When you identify as an oppressed group member you both minimise and hide their struggle.

Yes.

[MrsBunHat]

Yes absolutely- race is much more of a spectrum and a matter of identity than sex is - and yet we can all understand that some people are oppressed because of their ethnicity/ race and pretending to be them is insulting.

Gender is a massive spectrum but people should be able to pick and choose whatever gender expression they like, without it having anything to do with their sex. Much as you can enjoy whatever you like from all the world’s culture, but it doesn’t change your ethnicity, race, DNA etc.

[LivingLaVidaCovid]

The bit I find weird is I actually think it should be the other way round if anything.

in today's globalised society race is very much a spectrum (genetically / scientifically a lot people are a multiple "races" ) i am not homogenous and my DH is a real mix! so self identifying as X makes way more sense to me vs jumping over a binary fence because scientifically over 99.9% of people have xx or xy chromosomes. Classification is unambiguous and a scientific fact not an opinion.

[guinnessguzzler]

I feel very sorry for Rachel Dolezal. Of course what she did was awful, but when you understand her early life and family situation you can see how it all played out. It's very sad but it doesn't mean the rest of the world should tell her she is, in fact, African American.

What can we do, then? Accept her for who she is, let her get on with living her life, and draw the line at her taking roles, spaces or support set aside only for black people, or BME people more generally, who require certain protections and support due to centuries of discrimination and oppression. That seems both fair and compassionate to me.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

When you identify as an oppressed group member you both minimise and hide their struggle.

This is it. But we’re not supposed to mind.

[Siameasy]

Both race and gender are social constructs. They also are hierarchies-intentionally so, I believe.
Ethnicity is real - ie your ancestors came from X part of the world. We call (pale-skinned?) Europeans “white” but who is permitted to be white and who is not has varied throughout history and still is contentious today.
There’s no such thing as the black or white “race” from a scientific perspective. Similarly, gender isn’t real. Nonetheless both concepts have real effects on humans
Obviously socially it’s a different matter now. Both concepts are here to stay because everyone has bought into it.

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

Was somebody subMNing a notorious incident of an academic who was identified into a race classification? One who has now adopted another cause and has returned to public life?

twitter.com/DialloNkechi/status/1401939644187484165/retweets/with_comments

[headintheproverbial]

Oooh. When I logged on to work this morning this thread only had about 12 replies!

[MrsBunHat]

Oh and THEN (yes I am warming to my theme! :o) the people who were imitating a stereotype and claiming to be black, and who issued violent threats to black people who disagreed, started complaining that they were the victims, and it was the black people who wanted them dead, and that by daring to say they weren't black, the black people were murderers because the transblack people would be so upset they would be at risk of suicide. Oh and black people also weren't allowed to talk about issues that actually affected them, such as sickle cell anaemia, because trans black people would feel left out.

I could go on... and on... ....

[Helleofabore]

MrsBunHat

Sounds quite familiar there MrsBunHat.

yes, imagine if a board set up to decide on policy for racial minorities appointed people that only identified as those minorities (either decades ago or just 6 months ago). That would be seen as pretty problematic wouldn't it? Particularly if they then started insisting that their own agenda was prioritised when it did not benefit that group at all...

[NCwhatsmynameagain]

It’s not more nuanced OP. You’ve hit the nail on the head.
Also, how is a cultural/racial identity any less of a spectrum than a gender identity?
Both are very clearly appropriation, one is offensive the other is apparently fine.

[BlueBrush]

It is indeed, MrsBunHat, it is indeed.

[MrsBunHat]

And then imagine if the people who performed all that insulting imitation of black stereotypes not only insisted they actually WERE literally black, and demanded to be given access to black literary prizes, grants, jobs in black organisations etc., but that people everywhere actually did take them seriously and started giving them these rights and accesses and writing them into law? And if, as a black person, you objected, you were cast as the evil bigot and stood to lose your job, and were subject to threats of death, rape and violence on twitter? But these threats were ignored by the police but if you dared to say "trans black people aren't black" then YOU could get investigated?

Starting to sound unpleasant at all? And perhaps deeply racist?

[MrsBunHat]

But socially, you can change your gender to live as a woman.

I agree this only makes sense if you argue that women occupy some stereotyped social niche, which they don't. The only roles that are solely occupied by women socially are those that result from biology, such as giving birth, or being at a disadvantage in physical strength and needing separate spaces/categories.

Plus if by social role you mean appearance, then a white person could imitate a black person's appearance, with make-up, perhaps also surgery to change their facial features, and maybe stereotyped clothing that's seen as "what black people wear", and imitating an African or Jamaican accent. This would be in close parallel to a male having surgery, imitating stereotypically feminine hair, make-up and clothing, and imitating a female voice. Yet the first would be seen as massively racist and insulting, and the second is seen as your "true identity" and "brave" etc.

Well, I find it insulting in just the same way, that anyone thinks they are a woman and can claim access to women's SEXED spaces because of that surface, stereotyped and reductive imitation. None of those things give them an understanding of being a woman.

[BlueBrush]

Now as for the people clearly of race X, not mixed race and not raised by another race, but decide to claim they are race Y....its not the same as being a man wanting to live as a woman. Biologically, you cannot change your sex as you cannot change your race. But socially, you can change your gender to live as a woman.

But that only holds if "woman" is a gender, whereas for many of us on this board, being a woman is solely about our biological sex.

But even if we do say that you can live as a man/woman by behaving/dressing/presenting in a "man-y" or "woman-y" way, why isn't the same true for race?

I'm white and I can't change my physical race, but I could e.g. immerse myself in black culture, give myself a Nigerian name, emulate the hairstyles of black women. There are probably ways I could do that that would be more sensitive and respectful of black people, but none of those things would mean I ever really understood what it's like to be black, or give me the right to speak as a black person, or take up black spaces.

I think its the same for men and women.

[sneezypants]

I disagree. I'm mixed race, and nobody has ever ever seen me as white. I'm far too black for that. There;s no conflict there at all.