When your daughter's friend is trans.

[Sirranon]

I've lurked on here for a while, reading the gender critical stuff. But I've not seen this addressed.

How do people think is best to handle it wisely when DDs best friend is trans. Would you use or not use the requested pronouns? Are there any good resources I can give to DD to persuade her her friend is potentially on a bad path. 🙁

DD has fully bought into all this and is providing support and encouragement.

I've just found out her friend is binding and I'm horrified. Even though I know it's not my daughter or my business.

Belgian blues are ultra-muscular, maybe that confused cleddyf

I assume that post was to jab at women, presenting the idea that breastfeeding is animal and gross. 'raw teat' is the bit that stood out. Took a bit of extra effort and thought to bung the raw in

They pop up from time to time, self-described FTM. I’d say that comment comes from a deep well of self-hatred as much as a jab at others, and it is very sad to see.

Also blue means boy, as we all know

@NiceGerbil

I think it's intended to cause upset and women to feel insulted.

Breasts in general seem to be a big deal for many transitioners.

If you're female they need to be hidden. Bound. Double mastectomy.

If you're male then getting some seems to be a priority and I've read and seen some pretty, frankly fetishy stuff.

In general. Men in the UK fetishise breasts. Are a bit obsessed with them. From page 3 to drag to lots of other things.

Many also find BF gross and offensive. Who wants to see that? Breasts being used for their purpose rather than for men to comment on, stare at, grab in the pub etc. Disgusting. They are for men to look at. Sex. That's it.

I assume that post was to jab at women, presenting the idea that breastfeeding is animal and gross. 'raw teat' is the bit that stood out. Took a bit of extra effort and thought to bung the raw in.

Then the idea that what comes from a breast is testosterone. Which is a reference to bodies being irrelevant I assume.

Either that or they're just a bit odd.

Having BF two babies I don't feel anything but, how pathetic.

Try harder next time!

That TikTok 'FtoM' surgeon in the USA, 'Dr Teetus Deleetus'. Teats, farm animals, all that bestial stuff. Language that dehumanises women is something of a theme...

The critical thinking sheet is good but there's no science in it. So add:

What is the data that supports this? Are there orthogonal methodologies that give the same result? How robust is the methodology? Is the result reproducible?Could the data suggest a different conclusion? What additional analysis would differentiate between these two different possible interpretations of this data?

Thanks, Charlie for the fab critical thinking resources. Have copied and will share with the kids. I think this skill is becoming only more and more important for children, in this age where people think you can suck testosterone from the teat of a cow. Much confusion. So wrong.

Janina, yes, but a seven year old might struggle with orthogonal methodologies, tbh.

Regarding how you engage with the transitioning child, it's got to be the parentsxwho have the final say. Therewaa a thread on here recently where someone's daughter had been bought a binder by their friend's mother. If you're not okay with that, then you you need to think very carefully before going against the wishes of your DD's friend.

However, since there is a significant body of evidence that teen transition is driven by social contagion, it does impact on your daughter, despite what some posters are suggesting.

In terms of how to deal with the transitioning friend, this is a young person who is most likely going through a difficult time, and they need goid friends around them. BUT I think you also need to be very firm and clear with your daughter about the basics of biology, that there is no such thing as being born in the wrong body, that any medical intervention will have long term serious impact and should be an absolute last resort, and that cheering on might not be in the best interests of the friend. Having a trans friend is super-trendy right now, so maybe challenge your daughter on whether she is certain that she is definitely acting in the best interest of her friend

Seems a bit odd, thinking. Have you emailed MN to ask why?

I'm a bit baffled by thinking's deletions. Seems like there's a new rule about mentioning a specific assumption about one's own life? Could mnhq come and clarify please?

I've also had a deletion upthread and MN haven't told me why.

I’ve asked MN how I broke the rules, as I’ve often previously mentioned my reluctance to grow up female (many years ago), and my relief that adults used to just let children grow out of these things.

Love the huge derail about the wonderfully pithy cow comment.

As for advice - it's okay if the kid's friend is trans. It's okay if he's not. His identity may evolve further, or he might have it all figured out already. Go with the requested pronouns and name; making mistakes is fine (it happens!) but deliberately using the wrong ones achieves nothing at all.

You have the right to your own boundaries. You don't have to pretend to believe something that you don't believe. Sometimes children - and these are children- need adults to hold their line while they experiment and push boundaries around it.
You have concerns about both the process of affirmation and the binding so why would you be positive about either. There is always a limit to how far we indulge are children's new ideas and a point at which we gently suggest that their might be a different way of thinking. My concern is that it is suggested that we treat this issue differently from any other issue that our children bring home and do exactly what our children demand. Why?

I'm gender critical and very concerned about the huge rise in transgender teenage girls especially, but my son's boyfriend is transgender (they got together before his transition and he was non binary first) and I'm happy to use his preferred pronouns. My son is well aware of my views and we have discussions about the issues occasionally, but I don't make it personal.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

I’ve asked MN how I broke the rules, as I’ve often previously mentioned my reluctance to grow up female (many years ago), and my relief that adults used to just let children grow out of these things.

Although MN deny it, there is most definitely a difference between weekend and weekday mods.

It sounds like the mods are perhaps following "University of Edinburgh rules" which appear to be that you are not allowed to talk about your/many girls' discomfort at puberty.
If this is to be a deletion offence, it needs to be listed in the moderation principles.

I didn't realise I'd had two posts deleted, I know the one that I didn't query is about pronouns.

The other has been reinstated as MN does not believe I intended to be rude.

Well, I’ve had a reply from MNHQ. My deleted message, about my childhood reluctance to grow up female, had said “We were lucky that transing wasn't a thing at the time, no one had ever heard of it.” I couldn’t see how that breached any guidelines.

MNHQ has replied We don't think that this language, particularly 'transing' is in the spirit, or civil to the discussion.

Now I really am baffled.

But at least it’s not that Edinburgh University prohibition, mentioned by Drspouse which I hadn’t heard of before, where you’re not allowed to talk of your / many girls’ discomfort at puberty. That is truly shocking, worthy of Gilead. Be silent, women.

I've seen loads of people celebrate 'transing', it's used a bit tongue-in-cheek.
Good to know, though.

It'd be no use telling a 13 year old that "puberty blockers" actually include powerful cancer drugs that could affect the bones and the heart and lead to earlier death, and that a FTM trans faces a lifetime of expensive drug treatment. The stuff that terrifies parents of FTM trans persons is of no interest as they are at any age when they think they will live forever... unless they themselves or someone close to them gets sick and dies very young. i just hope the parents of that friend are aware of the dangers and have told their child. You might try to find out from your daughter whether this is in fact the case. That is legitimate because the daughter herself might be spurred by the conversation to do some private fact-finding for her friend, even if in her talks with you she shows herself intransigent.

I think you also need to be very firm and clear with your daughter about the basics of biology, that there is no such thing as being born in the wrong body, that any medical intervention will have long term serious impact and should be an absolute last resort, and that cheering on might not be in the best interests of the friend. Having a trans friend is super-trendy right now, so maybe challenge your daughter on whether she is certain that she is definitely acting in the best interest of her friend

The ‘no debate’ culture is really problematic. I have said very little to my dd about it but she absolutely won’t discuss trans issues with me. The only things I do hear her say are not critically thought through, but I can say nothing or it will be perceived as transphobic.

The world is full of adults not staying out of it - full of adults goading, enticing and 'informing' children of the world of multiple-genders, of adults/teachers transing kids behind their parents backs, of adults rubbishing the boundaries of women especially lesbians, etc, etc. Staying out of it is more of the 'be kind' rubbish. Staying out of it is how we're in this mess.

Having said that - as others said you do need to pick your battles carefully so don't mention it over-often but stick to your views with your daughter. Don't lie. Prounouns is a form of lying. If you do use they - tell your daughter it is only out of respect for their friendship. Obviously use the chosen name - no reason people can't change a name.

The binding is awful but that is not your business unless you become aware that the trans child's parents have forbidden it in which case you have every right to forbid your child to help or support with that. If the trans child's parents don't know - that's difficult. Would you tell the parents if you became aware of the child self-harming in other ways? Your daughter will go mad - but what other harm would we turn away from? You may have to lean harder on your daughter to get the friend to confide in the parents. It is an awful situation OP and I feel really sorry for all concerned.