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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When your daughter's friend is trans.

127 replies

Sirranon · 19/06/2021 14:45

I've lurked on here for a while, reading the gender critical stuff. But I've not seen this addressed.

How do people think is best to handle it wisely when DDs best friend is trans. Would you use or not use the requested pronouns? Are there any good resources I can give to DD to persuade her her friend is potentially on a bad path. 🙁

DD has fully bought into all this and is providing support and encouragement.

I've just found out her friend is binding and I'm horrified. Even though I know it's not my daughter or my business.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 19/06/2021 20:59

Pronouns are fairly easy to avoid.

I would try and keep things light and easy, these are still kids, it's more than likely a phase that will pass.

Binding is dangerous, though. I would probably have a chat with your DD about the health risks involved.

And encourage questions, dialogue and thought. Questions and logical thought are like garlic and sunlight to these issues.

Vinniepolis · 19/06/2021 21:31

My 16yo DD has a male friend she’s known since Y1 who now identifies as a girl. I was a raving terf long before he came out, so my daughter knows how I feel. I won’t use she pronouns to refer to this person - I just use his new name, which does make me sound a bit stilted but I feel very strongly about coerced speech. She seems to be his biggest cheerleader - giving him her clothes, having him round for make-up sessions, doing photoshoots. She once said something like “won’t it be great once she’s had her surgery” and I did lose it a bit. Surely, I said, it would be so much better if this person learned to accept their own body and avoid a lifetime of surgery and drugs. Probably also learn to accept that he’s gay (he had a boyfriend just before he decided he was trans, but his boyfriend’s parents were hugely homophobic and actually quite scary.) I mean, join the dots!

I am worried that my daughter’s support is actually harming this boy, or maybe it’s an act of rebellion on her part because she knows it winds me up! It’s all so sad.

Sirranon · 19/06/2021 21:55

@NiceGerbil

OK I see where you're coming from. Thing is I've always been incredibly positive about GNC people to her. I am GNC myself in some ways and I've always been really clear that gender stereotypes are bollocks. Hopefully it's gone in at some level.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 19/06/2021 22:05

I think your DD will be fine. Just talk about it when it comes up.

I noticed DD was wearing 2 bra tops in yr8. I asked why. Was it about trying to squash them down a bit. I said it can't be comfy. Let's go and look at sports bras which do a similar thing. Wearing things which are too tight can be bad for you- can affect your breathing, your skin because of sweating and they're not breathable. And general discomfort.

Anyway she didn't want one in the end. And she's gone through that phase. She and her friends all had boys names on their watsapps etc. When she was younger she always wanted boys clothes which I bought no trouble.

She's clever and notices everything.

I felt uncomfortable with the way I was treated for as long as I can remember. I talked about that with her as well.

She seems to have no desire to squish her boobs any more and is relaxed and cheerful.

I really think it's linked to puberty for a lot of girls. DD got periods before year 6, and breasts, and it must have been hard.

Some children have dysphoria yes. But for girls especially it seems to be s combination of its the thing at the moment for girls, and a normal reaction to what changes for girls at puberty.

CharlieParley · 19/06/2021 22:15

We have girls identifying as trans in both family and among DC's friends and I understand why you are concerned Sirranon. Navigating this issue alongside all the other teenage issues is not easy.

I do not use preferred pronouns and have explained why I will not allow others to control my speech and why they shouldn't do so either. Given where I come from and my personal experience, I can give them ample evidence of where that leads. I do not care whether they condemn me for it. Or anyone for that matter. A childhood spent in a dictatorship without freedom of thought, expression or association means I do not accept anyone denying me those rights in my life now.

I use sex-based pronouns when the children in question aren't there, and avoid pronouns when they are. As we know each other, they know this isn't because I deny their existence or wish them harm. More importantly, the parents are doing this, too. I think it would be harder if they were full on TWAW though.

I do use preferred names, but one of the children has tried out several already, and I struggle to remember names at the best of times. Which everyone knows, so they do understand I'm not making a point about names. (I now also struggle with faces and have problems recognising even some family members when they have a mask on.)

With my own DC, we continue to have conversations about why I believe that the doctrine of gender identity is harmful, particularly to women and children. We talk a lot about science, about equal rights and how the balancing of rights works, and when necessary we discuss the lack of robust evidence on the efficacy and safety of puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and cosmetic surgeries.

There is nothing wrong in my view with sharing your opinions on these issues and nothing wrong with letting your children know that you disagree with their view. I encourage my children to present their views where they disagree with mine in a respectful, open debate. I let them have the last word. I don't shut them down, not even when they regurgitate some really offensive (usually misogynist) stuff that is often used in the debate by believers in the doctrine of gender identity.

I did rather pointedly have a critical thinking printout on the fridge door for months and frequently referred to it to encourage them to question both my and their own views using those techniques.

None of that avoids the emotional rollercoaster than any disagreement with a teen can turn into. But it all sinks in. The voice of your child's conscience is your voice and even if your daughter will deny it until she's blue in the face, what you are telling her will leave an impact on her way of thinking.

Just remember that you are modelling how to handle disagreement and that if you teach her to listen to other viewpoints by listening to hers, she will benefit in the long term (and your relationship will too).

NiceGerbil · 19/06/2021 22:30

As for the friend. I don't think anything will be achieved by not using her name. Use they for pronoun is easiest.

Your DD knows your views already.

CardinalLolzy · 19/06/2021 22:55

I did rather pointedly have a critical thinking printout on the fridge door for months and frequently referred to it to encourage them to question both my and their own views using those techniques.

Can I ask what that is?

NiceGerbil · 19/06/2021 23:16

The best way to do that is talk to them.

When they ask a question about something or if you're helping with a school thing or there's something on the news that's interesting. Or anything really. Chatting about it and asking questions back. Getting them to think. Two sides. Nuance. It's hard to understand sometimes why something you feel is wrong is supported by people who are decent people. It's good to understand why they would think that even if you don't agree. Things being polarised. The internet including wiki having lots of poor or incorrect info. In some cases propoganda. Check lots of sources. Including the ones that give the other side. Read the arguments. Make your own mind up.

All that stuff.

CharlieParley · 19/06/2021 23:26

@CardinalLolzy

I did rather pointedly have a critical thinking printout on the fridge door for months and frequently referred to it to encourage them to question both my and their own views using those techniques.

Can I ask what that is?

I used this one.
When your daughter's friend is trans.
cleddyf · 19/06/2021 23:30

what business is it of yours? keep your damn opinions to yourself. this is your daughters friend, right? someone not related to you at all? someone who you have barely any affiliation with? by all means, keep your reservations if they help you sleep at night, but you have absolutely no right to whirlwind your way into a trans kid's life and demand he drop his whole identity for your personal comfort. he isn't going to sacrifice himself to the altar of your little feelings.

if he's binding, it's none of your business. if he's taking blockers it's none of your business. if he's suckling the testosterone from the raw teat of a belgian blue cow, it's none of your damn business.

you should put your money where your mouth is and misgender him to his face. see where that gets you.

CardinalLolzy · 19/06/2021 23:34

Always love to see the safeguarding of children first and foremost on MN.

CardinalLolzy · 19/06/2021 23:36

And love the assumption that because someone is a boy they need to alter their body. Because boys can only have one type of body, right?

midgemagneto · 19/06/2021 23:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

teawamutu · 19/06/2021 23:38

Charley that sheet's going on my fridge tomorrow. Thank you.

CharlieParley · 19/06/2021 23:41

The Socratic method is also very useful in helping children think more critically.

Here is a list with examples of Socratic questions: changingminds.org/techniques/questioning/socratic_questions.htm

Clymene · 19/06/2021 23:53

Love that Charlie. We'll be using that here.

Children who are only on the brink of puberty are far too young to make any lifelong decisions. A name change and pronoun change at school is bloody hard to do a reverse ferret on.

We can be kind with condoning.

Warmduscher · 19/06/2021 23:56

@cleddyf

what business is it of yours? keep your damn opinions to yourself. this is your daughters friend, right? someone not related to you at all? someone who you have barely any affiliation with? by all means, keep your reservations if they help you sleep at night, but you have absolutely no right to whirlwind your way into a trans kid's life and demand he drop his whole identity for your personal comfort. he isn't going to sacrifice himself to the altar of your little feelings.

if he's binding, it's none of your business. if he's taking blockers it's none of your business. if he's suckling the testosterone from the raw teat of a belgian blue cow, it's none of your damn business.

you should put your money where your mouth is and misgender him to his face. see where that gets you.

Do they not have safeguarding where you come from?
Sirranon · 20/06/2021 00:07

@CharlieParley

Thanks, I can relate, especially what you say about your childhood. Those critical thinking resources are great.

OP posts:
WendyWoofer · 20/06/2021 00:23

My DS at the age of 14 had a friend who dressed in dresses and changed his/her name to Suzie (not the real name). My DS tried to convince me that Steven had now become a girl. I felt a bit enraged tbh that my, usually astute and intelligent, DS was becoming brainwashed into thinking a boy could change into a girl because he wears a dress.

I put my feelings to one side and went along with it. I called DS friend Suzie whenever she was around. It was short lived. By the time Suzie was 18 she had reverted back to Steven, ditched the dresses and became a father.

DS had moved on to new friends before he was 16. Thank God!

intheenddoesitreallymatter · 20/06/2021 00:26

@PassingThrough2

I think you're right that it's none of your business. And I imagine your daughter would be devastated if you tried to use her to 'convert' her friend – you wouldn't do the same if the friend were gay. Like, why would you want to drive a wedge between her and her friend like that?

And, of course, use the pronouns the friend wants to use –it's just a matter of politeness, rather than making the friend (and, possibly, by extension, your daughter) feel uncomfortable around you.

This in spades.

It’s nothing to do with you and not up to you to ‘Fix’

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 00:51

'if he's suckling the testosterone from the raw teat of a belgian blue cow, it's none of your damn business.'

Milk comes from a cows udders.

Not testosterone.

Interesting choice to make your point.

I suggest a visit to a farm might be in order.

SpindleWhorl · 20/06/2021 01:07

if he's suckling the testosterone from the raw teat of a belgian blue cow, it's none of your damn business

I think this wins the Dufusnet for me.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 01:48

I think it's intended to cause upset and women to feel insulted.

Breasts in general seem to be a big deal for many transitioners.

If you're female they need to be hidden. Bound. Double mastectomy.

If you're male then getting some seems to be a priority and I've read and seen some pretty, frankly fetishy stuff.

In general. Men in the UK fetishise breasts. Are a bit obsessed with them. From page 3 to drag to lots of other things.

Many also find BF gross and offensive. Who wants to see that? Breasts being used for their purpose rather than for men to comment on, stare at, grab in the pub etc. Disgusting. They are for men to look at. Sex. That's it.

I assume that post was to jab at women, presenting the idea that breastfeeding is animal and gross. 'raw teat' is the bit that stood out. Took a bit of extra effort and thought to bung the raw in.

Then the idea that what comes from a breast is testosterone. Which is a reference to bodies being irrelevant I assume.

Either that or they're just a bit odd.

Having BF two babies I don't feel anything but, how pathetic.

Try harder next time!

InspectorHastings · 20/06/2021 09:42

I'm really surprised by the quantity of people saying it's none of your business, and I'm the parent of a trans kid. All of her friends are fully signed up to trans ideology. It's totally entrenching her further into views which otherwise she may have been questioning. And of course I worry about the impact on those friends who are 'required' to constantly call someone by pronouns which are blatantly not in line with reality.
I would love their parents to help keep them on the ground. Ensure they're not floating off into internet wonderland. If one day my DD says 'I'm not entirely sure' if like her friends to reassure that's ok, and explore with her. At the moment they'd just offer to buy her a new binder.