Why mainly trans women?

[iMombie]

Hi,
Please don’t anyone flame me for this. I honestly don’t mean any disrespect, I’m just trying to learn. I’m curious and wonder if anyone has any insight to my question.
My attention has been drawn on the views of the likes of Forstater, de Wahl, JK Rowling (I know that’s not too recent).
I genuinely didn’t realise that believing in a biological definition of sex Is now deemed wrong. With that I’ve been trying to find articles and pieces to read to understand this (I do not have a lot of time on my hands for this, so not as succinct research as I would have liked(
But what I have come across, is that the group that are mainly upset with all of this are trans women.

So my question is...Why aren’t trans men seemingly as vocal about their definition of being a man?

Does this make sense or am I sounding like my mother when she talks about gay people?! I know I’m probably missing something and I sound quite thick. Apologies if that’s so.

Transmen can’t inherit titles under the GRA (Parliament knows what a a woman is when it comes to who is the next duke of x or Earl of y)*
*
Yes, that's correct. It's called primogeniture and was only recently changed in regard to succession to the throne when Kate was pregnant with George. For hereditary peers, for example, it still stands that the firstborn son inherits and a daughter transitioning to 'son' can't change this.

Slightly off topic, but I often worry about young trans men having to spend time in exclusively male spaces, loos etc While gender dysphoria may well be eased by transition, some of these young people are experiencing a trauma related response to sexual abuse, others are on the autism spectrum, and they're just being waved off out of medical settings into a world in which men can't treat each other with respect let alone women. It must be frightening.

I agree.

It is so utterly cruel to pretend to them that transitioning will solve their problems. They are so vulnerable in the male facilities.

A bit off-topic, apologies, but I'd really recommend reading the Medium article NotBad linked to upthread. It's not only extremely interesting; it also links to footage of the 2019 World Athletics Championships 4x400m mixed relay (the first time such an event was run).

The final leg saw one woman, Justyna Swiety-Ersetic of Poland, running against an all-male line-up from the other teams. She's in the lead at the changeover, but Michael Cherry of the USA simply accelerates past her like he's rocket-fuelled. It's astonishing to see. And one by one, all the other males pass her. She finishes last. Despite running what was probably the race of her life.

Let's not forget there are those who'd say she just 'wasn't trying hard enough'.

For TM attracted to men, gay men generally are a LOT less accommodating

There was a gay camp site in the US which refused to admit transmen - it was in the news earlier this year. I didn't see how this was phobic - it's a camp site for people with a shared sexuality, based on penises.

Indeed GrownUpBeans but pretty much anything for lesbians will come under huuuuuge pressure to include TW. Lesbian Posters on here frequently report the almost impossibility of finding a lesbian space that is only for adult human females

That's such a shame, it must be really hard for them. I hope the Forstater judgement will help - if it's okay to think biological sex matters generally in life, surely it must be okay for it to matter in relation to your sexual orientation.

@GrownUpBeans

For TM attracted to men, gay men generally are a LOT less accommodating

There was a gay camp site in the US which refused to admit transmen - it was in the news earlier this year. I didn't see how this was phobic - it's a camp site for people with a shared sexuality, based on penises.

I can’t see the ‘male vagina’ being a valid argument there.

There was a gay camp site in the US which refused to admit transmen - it was in the news earlier this year. I didn't see how this was phobic - it's a camp site for people with a shared sexuality, based on penises

If you contrast it with Mitchfest though- the trans men’s activism is not aggressive.

Xoxoxoxoxoxo

Agree. The aggression seems to be predominantly from some of the female-attracted transwomen. It's been an interesting thread.

Transmen can't inherit under primogeniture. Why? Because men don't accept they are men.

Transwomen on the other hand can use all of women's facilities because they are men.

Makes no sense does it.

Transwomen also inherit under primogeniture because society( ie men) accepts that they are really male.

Thanks again for the replies, I am still here and appreciating the views and the links to things to follow up and read/listen to.

Primogeniture is the thing that blows it out of the water.

@JayAlfredPrufrock

Primogeniture is the thing that blows it out of the water.

Indeed. Can you imagine the number of women who would identify as male in order to make inheritance fair?

Can't be having that.

It’s remarkable that in a risk assessment of your own safety you think a women’s prison poses greater threat to you as a trans man. I just can’t get my head around why you would argue such blatant falsehoods

Luxury beliefs. We can assume this person is not marginalised in any way that would put them at risk of ever going to prison. So spouting this nonsense is completely safe; they’re not at any risk of having a nasty encounter with the reality of what they’re talking about, and it helps them win their argument.

Sometimes trans men do go to prison, and it’s strangely rare for them to demand to be placed with the men.

According to an article published by a transman who served a sentence in the UK very recently, he had the choice which prison he could go to, and he chose the women's.

Quelle surprise

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

According to an article published by a transman who served a sentence in the UK very recently, he had the choice which prison he could go to, and he chose the women's.

I wonder what the threshold is for this. Would, for example, they allow someone born male who only recently identified as a woman, to choose which prison. Or maybe they only do so when people have a long history or have undergone reassignment surgery.

Historically, they have let people born male who had only recently identified as women, choose which prison, in order to give them access to the society of women, to support a later application for a GRC.

The most publicly famous case is Karen White.

extract

A transgender prisoner has been jailed for life after she admitted sexually assaulting two female inmates and previously raping two other women.

Leeds Crown Courtheard Karen White, 52, was a “predator” who posed a danger to women and children.

White, who was born male but now identifies as a woman and is transitioning, was jailed for two counts of rape, two sexual assaults while being held on remand and one offence of wounding.

(Continues)

While on remand atHMP New Hall, White began gender realignment, wearing a wig, makeup and false breasts.

While there she became friendly with another female inmate, until an incident in September last year while in the queue for prisoners to get medication.

Mr Dunn said: “The complainant, while waiting, felt something hard press against the small of her back. She turned around to see the defendant stood there. She could see the defendant’s penis erect and sticking out of the top of her pants, covered by her tights.”

Continues: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/karen-white-transgender-prisoner-jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html

Or they have decided not to impose a custodial sentence to avoid the problem of which prison entirely.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes shocking.

extract

One in 50 male prisoners claims to be transgender – four times the number in the population as a whole.
(Continues)

The high ratio may raise concerns that some offenders pretend to be transgender to gain extra privileges while inside. Inmates who identify as the opposite sex can choose whether they are kept in male or female jails and are allowed to shower alone.

A Surrey jail has set up a transgender wing over concerns that such inmates were vulnerable to bullying and suicide.
(Continues)
The figures, in the annual report by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons, suggest there are 1,500 transgender inmates in England and Wales – ten times more than government estimates.

Only six months ago, the Ministry of Justice said there were just 139 transgender prisoners.

(Continues)

But now prisoners can specify whether they want to go to an all men's or all women's prison, with a final decision made by a 'transgender review board'.

Peter Clarke, Chief Inspector of Prisons, said he could not determine whether prisoners pretended to be transgender.

Continues: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7230755/One-50-male-prisoners-identify-female.html

Indeed. Can you imagine the number of women who would identify as male in order to make inheritance fair?

Can't be having that.

This is key - transactivism didn't properly arise until there was no way a woman could gain an advantage from it, and no way a male could lose an advantage.

Women not having any inferior legal status to males was a necessary condition.

If males had a legal advantage anywhere, then transgender ideology would allow women to opt out of their inferior treatment, and men identifying as women might lose something.

So it arose in the 2000s, after all legal battles about women's rights had been won, just needing that one little exception to secure the one remaining male primogeniture advantage (which affects almost no-one).