Why mainly trans women?

[iMombie]

Hi,
Please don’t anyone flame me for this. I honestly don’t mean any disrespect, I’m just trying to learn. I’m curious and wonder if anyone has any insight to my question.
My attention has been drawn on the views of the likes of Forstater, de Wahl, JK Rowling (I know that’s not too recent).
I genuinely didn’t realise that believing in a biological definition of sex Is now deemed wrong. With that I’ve been trying to find articles and pieces to read to understand this (I do not have a lot of time on my hands for this, so not as succinct research as I would have liked(
But what I have come across, is that the group that are mainly upset with all of this are trans women.

So my question is...Why aren’t trans men seemingly as vocal about their definition of being a man?

Does this make sense or am I sounding like my mother when she talks about gay people?! I know I’m probably missing something and I sound quite thick. Apologies if that’s so.

@Datun

Op, men don't care if women want to play men's sport, use men's loos, go to men's prisons - they're absolutely no threat. Quite the opposite.

And anyway, transmen, given that they are female, are not clamouring to get into men's prisons, they can't compete in men's sports, and many of them don't want to use men's toilets.

Transwomen, on the other hand have a distinct advantage in women's sport, they have an advantage in going to a female prison, and many of them want the validation of using female toilets and changing rooms.

It's not symmetrical. And sexism is still running through the whole thing like a stick of rock.

^^

Does this make sense or am I sounding like my mother when she talks about gay people?

For what it is worth, gay people were not trying to tell people that they were something other than what they were: people who wanted the same rights for their relationship status and not to be discriminated against for their same sex relationships. It is not the same as being told you have to believe that someone can change sex or that they should access every right that females have when they are not females.

It is tricky to cope with the dissonance until you realize that you are not alone. And particularly once you have encountered enough interactions where people who are trying to convince you cannot produce any evidence that is robust enough to be debated.

Motivation is generally different. Trans men are fleeing womanhood like a house on fire - and frankly, who can blame them. The bulk of trans women are in it for a very different reason that I don't think we're allowed to mention here.

@2Rebecca

The trans men I've met seem to be trying to identify out of femininity and femaleness rather than deliberately identifying in to being a man. I think that's why there seem to be more nonbinary females. There is a lot of beard growing but that may be to make their faces look less feminine. Transwomen seem more bothered about validation and identifying in to being a woman. Also the male socialisation, males being better at many sports and I think there is more of a desire to subjugate women. Transmen don't seem to go around telling males that they are the most vulnerable men and that non transmen have privilege and should pay more attention to transmen. There seems to be more just trying to pass and fit in rather than telling males how to live their lives and what to think..

What's the equivalent of AGP? Is there one....? I wonder...

Because its general trans women (not all) that expect women to move over to accommodate them. Lots of women have an issue with this as women are constantly being told to move over for biological men and there's genuine safety issues.

Also, biological men in women's spaces is more of a concern for many women, than having biological females in males spaces is for men.

Women's sports is also a huge issue for me. I don't recall any trans men, wanting to compete in sport as a man. Transwomen competing in women's sports has a real danger or pushing women (and therefore girls) out of sport. Just when we are making steps forward in getting attention on women's sports.

@RadandMad

Motivation is generally different. Trans men are fleeing womanhood like a house on fire - and frankly, who can blame them. The bulk of trans women are in it for a very different reason that I don't think we're allowed to mention here.

Oh dear. I'm going to get deleted then.

Because trans-men mostly want to blend into society and get on with their lives, and be accepted as male. And as those trans-men who transition physically as well as socially do pass as male most of them do actually just blend in.

GNCQ

I get the relevance of patriarchy regarding hate towards lesbians. But why the lack of hatred towards straight men? If two people with male entitlement strongly disagree with each other, wouldn't you expect a lot of noise?

I'd expect fisticuffs

You don't hear a lot about chickens getting in the fox coop.

Notably, foxes don't even have coops, they don't need them. It's the chickens that need to be protected and find themselves in a cage

Transmen pass better because the effects of testosterone lower the voice and grow facial hair, plus men’s clothing can be worn by women without causing much of a stir so if a transman doesn’t pass they just look like a woman in unflattering clothes, whereas you can’t undo the effects of testosterone so transwomen are bigger, hairier and more masculine looking with receding hairlines and women’s clothes are almost never worn by men so a man in a flowery dress and lipstick sticks out like a sore thumb.

Plus men aren’t scared of transmen attacking them or taking their sports trophies.

Thank you all so much for your replies.
It’s so interesting. I’d thought about the physical/vulnerability side but I didn’t consider the social hierarchy aspect.
As long as females, born or otherwise don’t upset the male (born or otherwise) sensibilities, all is well in the world!!
There just seems to be so much vitriol and anger tied up in all of this.

Transmen don’t want to redefine what it means to be a man. They don’t want to be better at being a man than biological man. They don’t want to be ‘noticed’. There isn’t a sexual fetish element associated with it.
So many reasons

I got deleted after suggesting googling as I’d be deleted. Others have actually explained more than I did and haven’t been deleted so look more into what these guys are saying.

Many trans men are younger. Like my daughter, and why I care about this issue as I want to prevent her being caught up in this, a significant proportion of trans men and non binary, are autistic, as evidenced in recent court cases. I’ve read lots of other cases of trans females suffering from trauma.

@sharksarecool
3. Typical reasons behind transition are different for each group. Its not an even spread across ages. Most transmen seem to be transitioning in teens/early 20s, whereas transwomen tend to transition much later, often after they have fathered children and reached career goals as a man. So it's no real surprise that older men are more vocal and entitled than younger women.

This is essentially what I said but was deleted.

I recommend reading this.

It's a long account from a young woman about what pushed her to identify as a transman, and how she desisted again.

4thwavenow.com/2019/05/16/genderflux-how-one-young-woman-fell-down-the-rapid-onset-rabbit-hole/

Just to add in much the same vein as others.

Trans men are women trying to escape the limitations of being female in a male dominated society, and in most instances dont make a huge song and dance about it, or try and gain fame. ie they are trying to blend into the dominant group. It may also be that having been bought up female in a man world they feel less confident about being public.

Trans women (or at least the vocal trans activists) act far more like a colonising group. It isn't being trans that is the issue but that because (some) trans women go out of their way to belittle, challenge, dictate, to actual women. Not helped by the fact that organisation like Stonewall have made it a political act against women. The demand that TWAW is part of an orchestrated attack on women's sex based rights. ie rights that women derive because of the sex they are born, because being born someone whose sex is female means you then suffer sex discrimination.

The whole issue of whether someone is trans or not would not be an issue, or would probably be dealt with with the "be kind" motto, if only some trans women and politicised trans activists hadn't weaponised trans women to be the weapon to beat women into submission.

@Datun

Op, men don't care if women want to play men's sport, use men's loos, go to men's prisons - they're absolutely no threat. Quite the opposite.

And anyway, transmen, given that they are female, are not clamouring to get into men's prisons, they can't compete in men's sports, and many of them don't want to use men's toilets.

Transwomen, on the other hand have a distinct advantage in women's sport, they have an advantage in going to a female prison, and many of them want the validation of using female toilets and changing rooms.

It's not symmetrical. And sexism is still running through the whole thing like a stick of rock.

This.

A friend of mine had a situation at work which I think exemplifies the differences.

She worked for an NFP and there was a TW and a TM in her team. The TW made it her business to share her inspiring story to every new employee, vendor and client. Despite occupying a bog standard middle tier role everyone in the industry knew her name. She started carving out a career as a speaker, educating the sector in how to best accommodate TP. Meanwhile the job that she had been employed to do was neglected, with the rest of the (mostly female) team left to pick up her responsibilities. When the organisation tried to refocus her on her KPIs she resigned in a flounce, is taking them to court for discrimination and bad mouths them to anyone who will listen.

The TM in the team is hard working and well liked and prefers to fly under the radar. Most people outside the immediate team don’t even know he is trans.

Because transmen know that male prisons would be dangerous for them, that there's no point in trying to access men's sports because they'd never be able to compete anyway, and that male toilets aren't necessarily equipped to deal with female issues (I'm thinking sanitary bins here).

@GrownUpBeans

There's less opposition to transmen being allowed in male spaces, playing on men's sports teams etc. So maybe transmen don't feel they need to be as vocal?

This.

In some cases men don't care. But even when they do care, say they feel their privacy is invaded, it's a little intangible, there isn't a safety issue, so they don't feel like they should speak up.

In terms of some things like sports, there's just not much chance that a transman is going to be beating men out of scholarships or endangering them on the sports field.

Transmen who don’t “pass” are typically just “read” as butch lesbians however transwomen who fail to pass are “read” as men in dresses. The risks of facing violence are higher for transwomen.