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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

630 replies

oxcat1 · 15/06/2021 11:24

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

OP posts:
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AdHominemNonSequitur · 15/06/2021 20:04

@Lonel

*your mum
No. Your mum!
Helen8220 · 15/06/2021 20:15

@oxcat1

I can’t speak for all TRAs (not what I would generally call myself but I probably am in MN terms) but I certainly consider gender norms to be socially constructed and largely detrimental. It seems to me a big part of the difference between my view and that of most ‘GC’ people comes down to how powerful and pervasive you think gender norms are, and how easy you think it is to be gender non-conforming.

I think that gender norms shape who we are from a very young age - whether we embrace them, conform to them unwillingly, or actively rebel against them. I also think that people who fail to conform often face severe consequences, from outward aggression to exclusion and rejection, as well as internalised shame and judgement. So I don’t think it’s surprising that a person who has a strong sense of discomfort with - even revulsion towards - the set of expectations that apply to their biological sex might feel their only option is to ‘live as’ the other sex.

Helen8220 · 15/06/2021 20:17

@AdHominemNonSequitur
I was so tempted to make that joke Grin

Cwenthryth · 15/06/2021 20:35

[quote Helen8220]@oxcat1

I can’t speak for all TRAs (not what I would generally call myself but I probably am in MN terms) but I certainly consider gender norms to be socially constructed and largely detrimental. It seems to me a big part of the difference between my view and that of most ‘GC’ people comes down to how powerful and pervasive you think gender norms are, and how easy you think it is to be gender non-conforming.

I think that gender norms shape who we are from a very young age - whether we embrace them, conform to them unwillingly, or actively rebel against them. I also think that people who fail to conform often face severe consequences, from outward aggression to exclusion and rejection, as well as internalised shame and judgement. So I don’t think it’s surprising that a person who has a strong sense of discomfort with - even revulsion towards - the set of expectations that apply to their biological sex might feel their only option is to ‘live as’ the other sex.[/quote]
Interested to hear more about how you think your views are different from ‘GC’ because your second paragraph sounds entirely consistent with what I and every gender critical feminist I’ve ever discussed this with would agree with as one of the possible explanations for desire to transition.

TabbyStar · 15/06/2021 20:39

Helen8220 I can see that that might be the case for the "old school transexuals and I think it's helpful to think about that for some people, but I definitely think that isn't it for many (most?) of the people who are now claiming to be transgender. But even if that is the case, there's no reason why their right to not feel uncomfortable or safe should override mine.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 20:47

I suspect that many trans people's identity does follow on from their expression (which may be innate, or may be a teenage affectation), but I also suspect that it's the other way round for others.

It may be, but I don't believe there's a meaningful split, sexist stereotypes are ALWAYS involved somewhere.

Barheim · 15/06/2021 20:53

Decided to make an account for this thread, because the amount it makes me want to bash my head into a wall was honestly applaudable.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress,

This... isn't gender.

Gender is entirely internal. The expectations we have towards gender are gender stereotypes - that women wear dresses and are nurturing, men like sports and are emotionless, etcetera.

I can't speak for all trans people, obviously, but I've yet to have this very discussion with anyone -
a woman who's a butch lesbian (who I'll for the hypothetical refer to with she/her pronouns) who

  • uses testosterone to grow out facial hair (or who naturally has extra facial hair)
  • wears clothes from the 'men's
  • likes beer, football and fart jokes
  • has a deep masculine voice
  • has a flat chest through natural or surgical means
  • prefers to be referred to with he/him pronouns, or called 'king', or even called 'boyfriend'
  • whatever else is associated with men
is not a man by extent that her gender is a woman, which is entirely something that solely she, herself, can acknowledge or disacknowledge.

She can have identical characteristics/interests/etc to trans men, she can be outwardly indistinguishable from any men, but she still is, and should be protected entirely as, a woman.

I don't know a single trans person who's out here arguing that wearing a dress and slapping on lipstick makes someone a woman, or who'd vehemently argue that the formerly described butch lesbian must be a man, and I've spoken to hundreds over the years, and listened to thousands more.

A common complaint of gender non-conforming trans men is that we'll continuously get invalidated and have our gender questioned when we do anything from wearing a floral top, doing our hair, going out in a full dress and make-up when none of that dictates what someone's gender is, when no one (beyond people who insist trans people are doing this, or who keep confusing non-trans drag queens for trans people) is out there arguing that actually, non-transgender men who wear dresses are really women -- something that does happen to transgender men, that shouldn't be done.

This isn't something that's hiding in the shadows, buried as a deep secret. This is a common thing and one of the reasons why Gottmik, The trans drag queen who managed to get on RuPaul's Drag Race despite the hosts' insisting that we (trans people) have an 'unfair advantage', was enormously popular among trans men who are Drag Race fans.

Slight divergion aside,

Some of us adhere to gender stereotypes, some of us don't. Just the same as everyone who isn't trans. We're not following some magazine checklist of 'what a woman should be' or 'what a man should be', we are who we are.

I see a lot of arguing from gender critical people against 'gender' (which, going by the OP, is not even what I describe gender as), and what they assume about transgender people, but never actual criticism about gender.

I don't care about gender stereotypes, but I would never call myself gender critical.

Barheim · 15/06/2021 20:56

Major brainfart on the 'I can't speak for all trans people, obviously, but I've yet to have this very discussion with anyone' part, I meant to say that I've yet to have anyone argue that the described butch lesbian is actually a trans man.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:05

I'd agree with your brainfart description.

I can't untangle what you mean.

Barheim · 15/06/2021 21:09

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

I'd agree with your brainfart description.

I can't untangle what you mean.

Neither can I!

What I meant is, a butch lesbian who:

  • uses testosterone to grow out facial hair (or who naturally has extra facial hair)
  • wears clothes from the 'men's
  • likes beer, football and fart jokes
  • has a deep masculine voice
  • has a flat chest through natural or surgical means
  • prefers to be referred to with he/him pronouns, or called 'king', or even called 'boyfriend'
  • whatever else is associated with men
is not a man and should not be argued to be a man, it'd take quite an arse to argue she's really a trans man, and the trans people I'm familiar with wouldn't.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 21:11

I see a lot of arguing from gender critical people against 'gender' (which, going by the OP, is not even what I describe gender as), and what they assume about transgender people, but never actual criticism about gender.

Really? I don't think trans people have the last word on what "gender" means. Gender is sex role stereotypes and the framework of expectations around them. And yes, feminists criticise those stereotypes, that framework and all that flows from it.

Toseland · 15/06/2021 21:14

I just wanted to add that Alok come into our workplace to advise us all on gender - he spent a full 15 minutes moaning about how he was harassed in the street as a teenager for wearing non gender conforming clothes - whist I sat there listening and thinking ‘yeah mate but if you changed your clothes you could stop it all - meanwhile at the same age I was being catcalled and followed home just for wearing school uniform’ - he had no understanding or empathy for anyone else - it seemed to me he wanted to change the world to fit his own personal preferences.

TabbyStar · 15/06/2021 21:16

If gender is an internal feeling, why do people need to change their outward presentation?

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:18

Then why is twaw trotted out so regularly?
I fail to see how someone who is taking hormones that are not related to their sex is not, by very definition trans.
That's not something butch lesbians have ever done lightly.

Barheim · 15/06/2021 21:19

Really? I don't think trans people have the last word on what "gender" means. Gender is sex role stereotypes and the framework of expectations around them. And yes, feminists criticise those stereotypes, that framework and all that flows from it.

What I described as gender stereotypes and sex role stereotypes are exactly the same thing.

I do think it odd that we can't say what 'gender' is, but you can argue that trans people are following sex role stereotypes by extent of us being our gender.

Beancounter1 · 15/06/2021 21:20

A common complaint of gender non-conforming trans men is that we'll continuously get invalidated and have our gender questioned when we do anything from wearing a floral top, doing our hair, going out in a full dress and make-up when none of that dictates what someone's gender is

Seriously, if you are a transman, why would you want to dress as a feminine woman? Wouldn't it just be easier to stay as a woman who dresses as a man sometimes? I mean why bother being 'trans', why not just be the sex you were born but enjoy all sorts of clothes?

How does this person know they are a transman? Why is it important to them if they are still going to dress as a woman? (And how would anybody else know they were trans if they were in a dress and make-up?)

I'm just genuinely puzzled by this - can't get my head round the thought process of such a person.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:21

Also. Why does gender matter?

I know why gender matters to feminists. As gender is a tool used to control.

But if gender is innate, and gender expression essentially meaningless, why does gender matter?

It's a bit like categorising yourself as extrovert or introvert. It only actually matters to the individual (and I suppose useful information to the person inviting you to speak at the conference.)

NCwhatsmynameagain · 15/06/2021 21:22

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Because the whole ideology is founded in sex stereotypes, if they didn't exist there would only be a tiny number of people with a serious psychological condition.
100% this
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 21:22

I do think it odd that we can't say what 'gender' is, but you can argue that trans people are following sex role stereotypes by extent of us being our gender.

Can you describe what a woman is, without referring to biological sex, or stereotypes?

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:23

You are more than welcome to explain what your view of gender is. I don't think your illustration does that. When defining a thing it is useful to say what it is and what it is.
In simple words for those of us who are one beer in pleaseGrin

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 21:24

Two here Grin

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:25

What it is not what it isn't.
Darn Orageboom!

Barheim · 15/06/2021 21:27

Having some awkwardness with the emphasises, sorry.

If gender is an internal feeling, why do people need to change their outward presentation?

  1. Dysphoria is an enormous pain in the ass.
  2. Society at large is also an enormous pain in the ass.
  3. It's incredibly difficult to be acknowledged as a man when you have G-cup breasts and a high voice.
  4. Because bodily autonomy.

^Then why is twaw trotted out so regularly?
I fail to see how someone who is taking hormones that are not related to their sex is not, by very definition trans.
That's not something butch lesbians have ever done lightly.^

Because trans women are women.

Taking hormones isn't what makes someone trans. Someone who doesn't take hormones can be trans, someone who does take hormones can be not-trans. Whether or not they do it lightly isn't anything for me to judge - if they feel more themselves with testosterone in their system, good for them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 21:29

Because trans women are women.

That's your belief, yes. How are they women, if it isn't based on biological sex, or stereotypes of what they think women are like?

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:29

With all due respect, I can't follow your line of thinking.
And I don't think that's entirely Orangeboom's fault.

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