Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

630 replies

oxcat1 · 15/06/2021 11:24

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Barheim · 15/06/2021 21:31

Seriously, if you are a transman, why would you want to dress as a feminine woman? Wouldn't it just be easier to stay as a woman who dresses as a man sometimes? I mean why bother being 'trans', why not just be the sex you were born but enjoy all sorts of clothes?

I find it incredibly ironic that the people who argue that they're 'gender critical' are arguing that trans men aren't men because they dress in a feminine manner for however many times.

As said before, it's not us who are arguing that wearing a dress makes someone a woman.

I'm not a 'woman who dresses like a man sometimes'. I'm a man who wears whatever I like, because gender stereotypes are boring and restricting men to trousers and blouses is heinous. Make-up is crushed up pigmentation with a whole lot of E-numbers (obviously more, but), dresses are strips of fabric sewn together, none of it is 'for men' or 'for women'.

Barheim · 15/06/2021 21:32

I mean obviously many of you would never say trans men are men anyway, but for this place to argue that trans men who wear a dress sometime should detransition and 'just dress as a man sometimes', because clearly trans men should all follow a template of shitting beers and farting footballs?

And you call yourselves 'gender critical'?

JediGnot · 15/06/2021 21:33

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I suspect that many trans people's identity does follow on from their expression (which may be innate, or may be a teenage affectation), but I also suspect that it's the other way round for others.

It may be, but I don't believe there's a meaningful split, sexist stereotypes are ALWAYS involved somewhere.

agreed
TabbyStar · 15/06/2021 21:33

It's incredibly difficult to be acknowledged as a man when you have G-cup breasts and a high voice.

What does being acknowledged as a man mean (other than higher wages and being let off tea making duties)?

YellowFish12 · 15/06/2021 21:35

Because trans women are women

No, they are not 🤷‍♀️

It’s not possible to change your biological sex. You can’t change your chromosomes.

TabbyStar · 15/06/2021 21:36

I find it incredibly ironic that the people who argue that they're 'gender critical' are arguing that trans men aren't men because they dress in a feminine manner for however many times.

GC people argue that you can be a human being and dress however you want whatever sex body you have.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 21:36

I don't think you understand the feminist definition of gender we are referring to. We don't subscribe to the same beliefs as you, that gender is innate. Gender is just stereotypes to us. There is nothing to base it on, apart from sex. Otherwise, why would people need to identify as the opposite sex in the first place? Without the belief in gender identity ideology it all seems very flimsy and insubstantial to many women, who experience oppression based on our female sex.

AlfonsoTheMango · 15/06/2021 21:38

@Barheim

Having some awkwardness with the emphasises, sorry.

If gender is an internal feeling, why do people need to change their outward presentation?

  1. Dysphoria is an enormous pain in the ass.
  2. Society at large is also an enormous pain in the ass.
  3. It's incredibly difficult to be acknowledged as a man when you have G-cup breasts and a high voice.
  4. Because bodily autonomy.

^Then why is twaw trotted out so regularly?
I fail to see how someone who is taking hormones that are not related to their sex is not, by very definition trans.
That's not something butch lesbians have ever done lightly.^

Because trans women are women.

Taking hormones isn't what makes someone trans. Someone who doesn't take hormones can be trans, someone who does take hormones can be not-trans. Whether or not they do it lightly isn't anything for me to judge - if they feel more themselves with testosterone in their system, good for them.

So, basically it comes down to feelings.

And, no. Transwomen are not women. They are transwomen.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:38

But men don't naturally come with G cup breasts.
It's a choice you do to yourself.
It's not something that happens to you. You make a choice to TRANSITION. The clue is in the name.
You're not coming across as very clear.

Barheim · 15/06/2021 21:39

What does being acknowledged as a man mean (other than higher wages and being let off tea making duties)?

Being... acknowledged as a man. As in having others address you with your correct pronouns, calling you a guy, letting you enter the men's without comment, whatever.

The higher wages and being let off tea making duties aren't going to happen when you transition, by the way, but trans people are already aware of that.

I don't think you understand the feminist definition of gender we are referring to. We don't subscribe to the same beliefs as you, that gender is innate. Gender is just stereotypes to us.

And in doing that, you paint stereotypes of us that aren't reflective of reality.

AlfonsoTheMango · 15/06/2021 21:40

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

But men don't naturally come with G cup breasts. It's a choice you do to yourself. It's not something that happens to you. You make a choice to TRANSITION. The clue is in the name. You're not coming across as very clear.
True. If a man has breasts, he either has a medical condition or is very overweight.
AlfonsoTheMango · 15/06/2021 21:41

@Barheim

What does being acknowledged as a man mean (other than higher wages and being let off tea making duties)?

Being... acknowledged as a man. As in having others address you with your correct pronouns, calling you a guy, letting you enter the men's without comment, whatever.

The higher wages and being let off tea making duties aren't going to happen when you transition, by the way, but trans people are already aware of that.

I don't think you understand the feminist definition of gender we are referring to. We don't subscribe to the same beliefs as you, that gender is innate. Gender is just stereotypes to us.

And in doing that, you paint stereotypes of us that aren't reflective of reality.

Not "correct" pronouns. Pronouns that people are compelled to use for fear of losing their jobs, being threatened, attacked etc.
MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:41

I'm reminded of the adage.
If you can't explain your position to a novice, then you probably don't understand what you're saying as well as you think you do.

AssassinatedBeauty · 15/06/2021 21:42

@Barheim by your explanation of gender, it can only mean an internal belief based on nothing or anything, depending on the individual. Something that literally cannot be defined, examined, questioned. Do you agree with that summary?

Barheim · 15/06/2021 21:42

But men don't naturally come with G cup breasts.
Gynecomastia makes for tremendous breasts, I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

It's a choice you do to yourself.
Having G-cup breasts? No, not really.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 21:43

Well I'm drinking beer, and I'm a woman.

Barheim · 15/06/2021 21:43

Not "correct" pronouns. Pronouns that people are compelled to use for fear of losing their jobs, being threatened, attacked etc.

I'd log off and touch grass if I were you and you think this is reality.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 15/06/2021 21:43

It is all bonkers. Not gender dysphoria, that is real, being straight, gay or both but anything else is just ridiculous stereotyping.,

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:43

Sorry, men, barring those with a medical condition, don't come with G Cup breasts.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 15/06/2021 21:44

Chin, chin @Ereshkigalangcleg

TheRebelle · 15/06/2021 21:44

How can you have a gender if it’s not based on biological sex and it’s not based on sexist stereotypes? It’s got to be something if you are it, so what is a man or a woman?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 21:44

And in doing that, you paint stereotypes of us that aren't reflective of reality.

Not really. Gender doesn't just affect trans people. What is it based on, if not sex or sex role stereotypes?

TabbyStar · 15/06/2021 21:44

Being... acknowledged as a man. As in having others address you with your correct pronouns, calling you a guy, letting you enter the men's without comment, whatever.

So I'm trying to understand here, do you just feel your body is wrong? Or is it something else? E.g. what is there meaningful that you can do as a man you can't do as a woman?

NiceGerbil · 15/06/2021 21:46

Is Alok the one who did a one person theatre thing about a burger?

Iirc it was after someone (I think a man) threw a burger at Alok on the street. Alok was angry that no WOMEN stepped in.

I'll check in case that's wrong...

NiceGerbil · 15/06/2021 21:47

Sorry! I was wrong.

It was alok's friend Travis

theatreanddance.britishcouncil.org/blog/2020/travisalabanza/