Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

I think who you find interesting as a figure is largely irrelevant to be honest. Different people will be interested in different things. Some value sports more than music.

FWIW I love both sports and music. I have no interest in Beckham, and very little interest in Bowie. However, objectively, I think Bowie is very interesting and Beckham very very uninteresting (other than, off the top of my head, the wearing a sarong, which was a bit of a curve-ball from a footballer).

@PumpkinSpiceWoman

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

I think, in the light of Maya's ruling, that slurs such as "anti-trans activists" should be unacceptable on this forum. What say you, @MNHQ?

But yes, please do give us examples of gender non-conforming trans people.

Once Bowie gets mentioned then I have to chip in.

lst pic - Bowie in a dress
2nd pic - Bowie boxing

I was young in the 70s and make up and long hair on men wasn't an unusual sight (Bolan etc), or even on non-celebrities.

I don't really think I'm adding anything to the discussion, just that men dressing in what is traditionally considered "feminine attire" isn't new to me. But them claiming to be women is.

I personally think David Beckham Lucy Bronze etc. are very interesting.
They have the type of intelligence that means they can assess a situation and adjust their bodies in nanoseconds. It's no less amazing than musical or medical genius to me, being distinctly average in all those areas.
I can see why Bowie would be considered more interesting because he changed a lot through his life.
Sport and music do remain one of the areas that people can escape poverty in a way that other areas can't.

I don't mean that I am performing botched operations on the cat by the way. Just that my aptitude for those subjects is nothing special.

Which nicely underlines our point. For TRAs , being gender non-conforming is special: it's queer, it's trans, it's non binary.
Yes. It absolutely needs "gender conformists" to work - and lots of activists like to conflate gender conforming with being right-wing, conservative and bigoted. So non-conforming gets to seem like the good guy.

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?
So a TW who looks male, has a male body, does not "perform" any female-gendered behaviour and has no dysmorphia can still be a TW? What exactly makes that person trans because I don't understand?

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

Perhaps because it's written into the DSM as the definition of gender dysphoria https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

PumpkinSpiceWoman - I haven't seen any definition of what it means to be trans without relying on gender stereotypes or it being circular ("a woman is someone that feels like a woman") - IMO gender relies on stereotypes - what else is there to explain what it is?

@Lonel

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue? So a TW who looks male, has a male body, does not "perform" any female-gendered behaviour and has no dysmorphia can still be a TW? What exactly makes that person trans because I don't understand?

You know exactly what makes that person trans! Exactly the same thing that made me turn from a man into a transwoman and back again whilst typing this post!

@PumpkinSpiceWoman

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

yes. It is a hard one.

Maybe because we have so many examples of exactly what we are suggesting. Including a great one from this week where one person asked the question:

'I guess the question for today is: What are little things I can do to feel more feminine that don't involve clothing or make up?'

An answer was... wait for it ....

'Have you worked on your hand writing at all? Grab some fun coloured pens and work on what (sic) your signature. Love seeing my name in so many colours. Grab some girly stationary and write someone an actual letter. Add soft music, candles and tea. Same with a journal. ...'

yep. coloured pens. no. hang on. The fun kind of coloured pens. And girly stationary.

This is replicated many times a day across every social media platform.

of course, we have also seen a women's co-chair for the Green Party declare how wonderful hormones are because now they can cry like a girl, a journalist journal their transition with all the stereotypes they could think of, including breasts bouncing boobily as they went down stairs and how they really loved it, really loved it. I am sure there will be many other examples, but I don't want to get deleted.

Of course, there are examples of people who don't resort to gender stereotypes.

So pumpkinspicewoman, maybe you can provide us with the wealth of evidence to the contrary. I certainly look forward to it.

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

Perhaps you could furnish us with your definition of "woman" that is neither based on biological sex or sex stereotypes? That would be very helpful, as I've never yet had one given.

@TabbyStar

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

Perhaps because it's written into the DSM as the definition of gender dysphoria [[https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria]]

PumpkinSpiceWoman - I haven't seen any definition of what it means to be trans without relying on gender stereotypes or it being circular ("a woman is someone that feels like a woman") - IMO gender relies on stereotypes - what else is there to explain what it is?

To be fair the trans lobby does seem to distinguish gender identity and gender experession.

I basically agree with you, subject to the caveat that it does seem to me to be perfectly possible, in theory at least, to identify as a formally hyper-masculine "man's man" who wishes to retain his original gender expression and has no shared bond with other women, but is, somehow, convinced of his womanhood. In other words I am both disagreeing with you a little, whilst agreeing completely that the whole thing is nuts.

@User52739

I think you have misunderstood. There’s a brilliant activist called Alok Vaid-Menon who regularly discusses gender theory from a non-binary perspective, I would definitely check out their Instagram and other writings if you want a great source straight from the horse’s mouth.

Alok?

'Little girls are kinky' Alok?

A few weeks ago on This Morning, they featured the parents of a 4 year old (yes, 4 year old) trans kid. And Holly was wanging on about how society wants to put people into 'boy boxes' and 'girl boxes' and how wrong that is blah blah blah, but that's exactly what trans ideology does. Thus child is a biological female who wants to wear 'boys clothes' and have a 'short haircut' and that means she is actually a boy? If that's not putting children into 'boxes' then I don't know what is?

Beckham very very uninteresting (other than, off the top of my head, the wearing a sarong, which was a bit of a curve-ball from a footballer)

It is a working class sport after all.

And another thing....lesbians are told off for describing themselves as same sex, rather than same gender. But you are sexually attracted by (crudely) dicks and/or breasts not by whether someone likes rugby or ballet...

Because they don't think gender is just a collection of stereotypes and societal expectations. They think it's an essential, inherent part of your soul, or something.

Does piss me off the way gender - a feminist concept about how women are restricted by society - has been turned on its' head to mean the very opposite.

@lazylinguist

Because they don't think gender is just a collection of stereotypes and societal expectations. They think it's an essential, inherent part of your soul, or something.

When I first came across this entire issue quite a few years ago, there were many, many transwomen saying exactly that. The reason why I think I'm a woman is because .

There was one particular transwoman on here, who said it's because it was the only way they could be 'vibrant'.

But as women started, very clearly with examples, to point out that gender stereotyping was as sexist as all get out, it stopped. Then it became an unidentifiable, unverifiable, indescribable essence. (That still involved sexist gender stereotyping).

LewishamMum

And another thing....lesbians are told off for describing themselves as same sex, rather than same gender. But you are sexually attracted by (crudely) dicks and/or breasts not by whether someone likes rugby or ballet...

I may not be the best qualified person to speak on this, as a bisexual, but I would say I’m attracted to other things about a person more than their primary or secondary sex characteristics - their face, voice, general mannerisms. I’ve been attracted to trans men who have neither breasts nor a penis

@Helen8220

LewishamMum

And another thing....lesbians are told off for describing themselves as same sex, rather than same gender. But you are sexually attracted by (crudely) dicks and/or breasts not by whether someone likes rugby or ballet...

I may not be the best qualified person to speak on this, as a bisexual, but I would say I’m attracted to other things about a person more than their primary or secondary sex characteristics - their face, voice, general mannerisms. I’ve been attracted to trans men who have neither breasts nor a penis

My sexual orientation is hetero. There's no way I'd be be attracted to someone with a vagina.

It's also a protected characteristic.

I may not be the best qualified person to speak on this, as a bisexual, but I would say I’m attracted to other things about a person more than their primary or secondary sex characteristics - their face, voice, general mannerisms. I’ve been attracted to trans men who have neither breasts nor a penis
My sexual orientation is hetero. There's no way I'd be be attracted to someone with a vagina.

It's also a protected characteristic.

Those things you mention, face, voice, mannerisms differ significantly depending on whether the person is male or female.

To be fair the trans lobby does seem to distinguish gender identity

Where does this "identity" come from? Is it like a belief in a disembodied soul? I don't accept that there is a split between identity and expression, when all "how I became trans" stories focus on male children not wanting to play with trucks etc.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

To be fair the trans lobby does seem to distinguish gender identity

Where does this "identity" come from? Is it like a belief in a disembodied soul? I don't accept that there is a split between identity and expression, when all "how I became trans" stories focus on male children not wanting to play with trucks etc.

IMHO "Expression" is the outward signs that indicate how masculine or feminine you might be. "Identity" is whatever it suits you to say at a given moment in time, for whatever reasons you have (genuine belief / feeling, desire to access opposite sex space, desire to be "special" somehow).

I suspect that many trans people's identity does follow on from their expression (which may be innate, or may be a teenage affectation), but I also suspect that it's the other way round for others.

@User52739

I think you have misunderstood. There’s a brilliant activist called Alok Vaid-Menon who regularly discusses gender theory from a non-binary perspective, I would definitely check out their Instagram and other writings if you want a great source straight from the horse’s mouth.

Straight from the horse’s something...