Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

Because all forms of critical theory are about power. All forms of discussion and argument are therefore about supporting or countering power. They are not about developing a deeper understanding of the world we live in. Reason is the servant, or the opponent, of power. It is nothing in itself.

Positions are sacrosanct, and to question them is immoral, and punishable. Contradiction and irrationality are presented as playfulness and satire. The effect of this, and in many cases the intent, is to keep people off balance and controllable. And feeling guilty.

I forgot to finish! GC positions tend to be empirically based and ask people to think for themselves (really think. Not just "do the research"). It's like kryptonite to TRAs.

Trans women, like all women, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditonally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

I have periods every months trans women don't. I carry babies and nearly died the last time I gave birth to my last child trans women don't have that problem. I have menopause to look forward to trans women don't and the list goes on. Trans women are not like all women that is a fantasy.

It used to be impossible to access medical support without ascribing to a nice set of stereotypes - trans women were turned away from further assistance simply for coming to appointments wearing ladies' cut jeans, instead of a pretty skirt. Or any kind of skirt at all.

That sounds really shitty I hope you got the support you needed.

It's not logical, but I do think there is an element in your question, OP, that's maybe a bit of an assumption.

Which is that all the things that signal gender, like clothes, are really what people are interested in. So a man who prefers dresses is really just interested in dresses, and if somehow if dresses could be equally worn by anyone, they would be better off. (And I know I am being a little reductive about it just being about clothes here, I'm just trying to keep my example simple.)

I don't think that's really what is going on at all. While some people may not care about signalling their sex through clothing, and some people are even a little uncomfortable about it, the reason for things like gendered clothing and certain other cultural attachments to sex is largely that a lot of people do like to relate their presentation to some extent, some of the time, to their sex.

Using myself as an example, a lot of the time my clothing is pretty neutral, even if I wear a skirt it's a practical choce rather than anything else. But some of the time I dress in a way that is more overly feminine, and the reason I like that is because it's overly feminine. Occasionally I even like being more masculine and the reason I like that is that it's more masculine. Femininity or masculinity without a reference to sex are meaningless, even if we "gender bend" and move outside of that.

So without getting too far into motivations, the whole point for the people you are talking about is about femininity or masculinity, and if dressing like a woman means wearing a dress, or wearing mukluks, that is going to be what they look to do. Wearing a gender neutral dress would not be of interest.

IMO the idea that most people might one day decide to give up on noticing or wanting to have clothing or some other cultural signals about sex is pie in the sky. Most people like these so long as they aren't terribly restrictive, and I don't see that changing, unless we somehow get rid of sexed bodies altogether.

Magdalen Berns on Alok:

It’s because they don’t want to break down the stereotypes, they like the stereotypes and want to fit in to them, just not the usual stereotypes that are associated with their sex. Don’t forget that there are some people out there who just like to be awkward so if they hear that men can enter women’s spaces by simply declaring that they feel like a woman then they’ll do it for the power trip.

I don't dress girly I dress that makes me feel comfortable. People used to call me a Tom boy. I have 3 daughters who are in secondary school and I would say they take after me they are laid back the girls at there school called them lesbians. My daughters were a little upset about it because they didn't come across as girly enough for them. If they were into the same sex then great as long as they are happy and they meet a nice woman to marry. They are not they are into boys. Society does judge you on how you dress and what you wear.

Oh bugger! Already been posted!

I have often wondered this.

Makes zero sense to me, but then again I was only allowed to think that you can't change sex since last week, so what do I know?

@ClawedButler

Yep. It's the complete illogicality of it all that winds me up.

I like things like Ru Paul's Drag Race. Here we see some men playing with "what it means to be a man" to gleefully expand the definition. Men with make-up blogs, all still identifying as men. THat's what I want to see: that being male or female shouldn't dictate what you think/like/wear.

The sheer regressive, sexist stereotypes that TRAs seem to cling to really boil my blood. "LOOK I'M A WOMAN" they shriek, because they've got lipstick and a skirt on, then at the drop of a hat they're threatening GCs with rape and violence.....just like the male sexist stereotype they're apparently nothing to do with.

“Playing with what it means to be a man”? Then why do they all refer to each other as if they were female? Why do they have misogynistic names?

It’s because they don’t want to break down the stereotypes, they like the stereotypes and want to fit in to them, just not the usual stereotypes that are associated with their sex

It’s tragic that in 2021 people feel the need to declare themselves NB in order to ‘give themselves permission’ to wear clothes they wrongly perceive to be associated only with the opposite sex. How tf have we gone so backwards in just a few years?

If Alok is supposed to be a good example here, that’s even worse. How can Alok think they’re being daring or different? It’s so arse-tighteningly conservative.

@DialSquare

Every time I watch Magdalen, I feel a renewed energy for fighting this shit.

Every time I watch Magdalen I'm close to tears. Very few "celebrity" deaths affect me at all, and I didn't even know of MB until a few months ago. But I can honestly say she's in a very small group - which includes a couple of singer-songwriters who wrote songs that really touched me as a teenager - of people who I am sad and angry aren't still around.

Trans women, like all women, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditonally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

I noticed some errors here, so I've fixed it for you:

Transwomen, like all men, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditionally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

Yes, that's because society is sexist and there's this idea that if a male really makes an effort to dress in a "feminine" manner, they must therefore really be a woman.

Indeed. That is sexist. You don't correct that by saying "any male can be a woman". That might be dropping the stereotype, but it continues the fundamental sexism - denying that women are a sex class.

The correct and non-sexist position is "no male can be a woman".

Trans women, like all women, encompass a variety of presentations and interests. Some like long hair and makeup. Some don't. Some enjoy hobbies traditonally seen (or stereotyped) as feminine. Some don't.

So then, what makes them believe they are a woman?

Or is it merely the truly offensive belief that they are simply 'not a man'? And offensive, because that is how women have been described throughout history.

Even recent history when England Rugby defined a female as someone who had not had a testerostone driven puberty or some such twaddle.

And why should women agree then that that person is 'just like them'?

Actually, this thread reminded me of the young woman who gave a speech to her school district in the states:

nypost.com/2021/06/11/virginia-girl-slams-school-board-for-trans-locker-room-policy/

"When woke kids asked me if I was a lesbian or a transboy because I cut my hair short, it should tell you these modern identities are superficial."

Trans ideology relies heavily on gender based norms. In fact, it is essential that to be queer, someone else has to be boring old "cis". I think this explains the anger towards older women "coming out" as non-binary by saying they don't have a gender identity. If you're mum is non-binary, who is going to cook your dinner??

Loads of pro-trans-rights people aren't the TRAs you see on Twitter. I've seen many saying 'gender is bullshit' 'gender is harmful' etc (and allies agreeing) but then... it's also great to be the 'other' gender and it defines you?
I kind of wish the word 'gender' would disappear and people would have to use more descriptive language.

"When woke kids asked me if I was a lesbian or a transboy because I cut my hair short, it should tell you these modern identities are superficial."

When did lives become so much harder for women and girls to live. In the 90's it was never this difficult.

*your mum

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

20 years ago I thought David Beckham was a pointless attention seeker. If he were to be wearing that sarong as a new thing today I'd argue that he was a cutting edge progressive trying to show vulnerable trans teens that gender expression and identity do not need to be welded together.

He's only a footballer nothing else between the ears. He was messing about. David Bowie is more interesting than him.

What a nasty comment.

You might also try Googling Dana Gillespie and Lori Maddox before embarrassing yourself about how "gender nonconforming" Bowie was.

You might also try Googling Dana Gillespie and Lori Maddox before embarrassing yourself about how "gender nonconforming" Bowie was.

It weren't intended to be a nasty comment I loved David Bowie from when I was a child I even named my daughter after his wife Iman. I thought David Becham was a terrible example to use.

Furthermore, I am a woman but people see me more as a Tom boy which is why I liked David Bowie so much.

Why do anti-trans activists keep accusing trans people of believing in gender stereotypes when you know that's untrue?

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

You might also try Googling Dana Gillespie and Lori Maddox before embarrassing yourself about how "gender nonconforming" Bowie was.

It weren't intended to be a nasty comment I loved David Bowie from when I was a child I even named my daughter after his wife Iman. I thought David Becham was a terrible example to use.

Furthermore, I am a woman but people see me more as a Tom boy which is why I liked David Bowie so much.

Your comment about David Beckham was nasty and pointless. Beckham actually probably was doing more to break down gender norms than Bowie.

There's something really desperate and depressing in the way so called gender critical feminists keep harping on about Bowie as being a good example.

The interesting point about David Beckham is that he was just a not-particularly interesting young man who was very famous. He was able to wear the sarong without it being an issue for him, just because he felt like wearing it. No particular thought process or statement being made. No one assumed he was non-binary, or gay, or feminine, or somehow a lesser man. Of course he was insulated from a lot of that due to his job status, his partner status and his wealth, being perceived as very masculine.