Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

Tiens.

Well that's us told

I do hope no-one reports that post, it should be kept in all it's glory.

'You can’t have a discussion on this subject when one side is coming at it from the point of view that transwomen are actually women. '

I think that's not it.

My view is that women and girls have generally been and still pretty much still are condsidered to be what men/ male dominated society say we are.

We are -by strangers and people who don't know us well and often those who do- seen in terms of types. 2D cardboard cutouts.

Men like to put us into the role they deem us to fit.

MILF
Jailbait
Tart
Old dear
Angry feminist
Bimbo
Ballbreaker

Etc etc

You get given a type and you are supposed to meet it.

Same as the all women love prosecco type stuff.

When you do something out of the 2D role given its met with confusion, dismay, anger.

So given this, what is a woman? Current opinion. No solid definition.

A woman is anyone who says they're a woman
The ones who take a passive role in sex and are valuable economically by having children
A formless entity (or whatever it was)
Women is a social role and always has been
Sure there's plenty.

So, we are just sort of templates with a 2D type attached.

Very few people are using woman to mean anything like what it used to mean.

When people say TWAW what they mean is that their understanding of what the definition of woman is, is different to what it meant to pretty much everyone up until recent history, and to the vast majority of the population still does.

Anyone can be s woman because a woman is whatever others want them to be.

It stems from massive sexism in other words. And changing really commonly used language. And saying it's not a change it always meant that.

The response to women saying no is the same response I described upthread. Confusion, dismay, anger.

I also hope it's not reported.

I don't know where to start with that post!

Calling people 'scum' on an open forum for anyone to read and draw their own conclusions is a bold move!

' as a marginalised group, are prone to extreme violence suffered against us by cis transphobes'

You mean cis men I assume.

I couldn't agree more.

Male violence is a massive global issue. Not just the deaths but the toxic views that cause a huge variety of harm.

Men who are seen as different eg gay men, women and children, all over the world and every day, are victims of s huge amount of harm. Of a really wide variety, all driven by toxic masculinity.

As a man, have you tried addressing this on any male dominated forums? On the trans issue, I'm sure you're aware of the type of things that are said.

Do you have any ideas about how things can be improved? Many groups have tried to address the harm caused to them by men. It's really difficult though to get anywhere. Interested in your thoughts.

Blimey!!!

There's so much to take from that post!

Calling people truscum- and naming some individuals! Any trans person who hold that view are 'not very well liked in the community these days, as they've proven to be very boorish and obnoxious.'

'hold respect of trans people on a pedestal'

Ok that sounds a bit weird. All X are truscum. All y are held on a pedestal. No matter what? That sounds carefully thought out doesn't it.

It's interesting that the poster felt comfortable using a blatant insult (scum) for anyone who has certain views and is trans but the 'wrong' sort of trans. And categorising anyone who is what used to be called transsexual, and holds those opinions as boorish etc.

It's very interesting indeed.

'the very concept of such a thing is like heroin to me - something i can never have, but i know that if i were to experience it, i would never want to live another second without it.'

Have you ever tried heroin?

You are aware that people can and do give it up, I assume? You imply that would be impossible. That's not a helpful view of addiction.

Oh. And you CAN have it. You can buy it. Might take a while to find how and where to start but definitely doable.

Heroin is extremely harmful. Seen trainspotting? It decimated large areas and caused a large amount of death. Not sure that's the comparison you want tbh.

Anyway. It's a poor analogy and crass.

And no one wants to hear about your genitals. Jesus. Why are trans people always going on about genitals? Genital inspections. People with penises/ clitorises. Calling lesbians genital fetishises. Etc.

Oh dear. Someone who is very borish and obnoxious is insisting other people are borish and obnoxious while lecturing women on how to think, talk, act, behave and respond.

No. I will not watch any of the 'video essays' (sic) you promote and I will not comply with your demands. I will extend to you the same courtesy (none) you have shown.

two people are at a bar. they are neither men nor women. their sexes may differ, they might not. the main point is that it doesn't matter.

In some circumstances sex might not matter, in some it really does. If I’m on a date it matters to me that the other person at the bar is male. If it’s someone I’m meeting for the first time it matters because I’ll take measures to ensure my own safety if it’s a male.

You really can’t see the utter privilege it is not to have to consider the sex of someone you might meet in a bar, to know that they might mean you harm and to know that by virtue of their body composition alone they could cause you significant harm? If that’s not the very definition of male privilege, I don’t know what it.

Sex matters.

Where to even start with that?

That’s an amazing post @cleddyf.

Incredible on many levels.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

I honestly don’t know where to start I think I probably won’t. I’ll just go back and enjoy trying to parse any coherent thought out of it. Overall impression: be kind, scum!

Sorry, no, I can’t not go there

two people are at a bar. they are neither men nor women. their sexes may differ, they might not. the main point is that it doesn't matter

Aren’t “two people are at a bar” jokes supposed to have a punchline?

Thank you cleddyF.

Another nighttime post that proves truly illuminating!!!!

It is almost like posters think readers don’t notice the lack of respect that they, the posters, have for females or for other people.

The fact that you call others in your community scum, and claim it is because they are boorish and obnoxious is one of the first signs that you opinions are probably full of projection, and more than likely overflowing with hyperbole and hypocrisy.

I do love that you have posted a whole slew of propaganda videos though. Lovely, I look forward to those.

It must truly rankle though that we have no need to use those pronouns you insist are obligatory.

And it must infuriate you that women simply won’t do what you want them to do.

It is a belter of a post, both in its earnestness and its offensiveness, not least to the poor old capital letter. I love the assumption those videos might be new, the casual transphobia to those who don’t toe the party line and the “pronouns are obligatory” demand.

No.

@Sophoclesthefox

Sorry, no, I can’t not go there

two people are at a bar. they are neither men nor women. their sexes may differ, they might not. the main point is that it doesn't matter

Aren’t “two people are at a bar” jokes supposed to have a punchline?

You are right Sophocles.

Maybe the poster used it as a comedic signpost about the comedic devices used through out.

Like the claim that there is scientific evidence for our existence. That was comedy gold. Because no one denies trans people’s existence, do they?

And we absolutely would love the scientific evidence to be posted. We live in wait. …

The fact that you call others in your community scum, and claim it is because they are boorish and obnoxious is one of the first signs that you opinions are probably full of projection, and more than likely overflowing with hyperbole and hypocrisy

I do love that you have posted a whole slew of propaganda videos though. Lovely, I look forward to those

It must truly rankle though that we have no need to use those pronouns you insist are obligatory

And it must infuriate you that women simply won’t do what you want them to do*

Oh dear - you've transgressed here. The poster clearly said that he/him pronouns were obligatory. No second person pronouns allowed, clearly. No possessive pronouns either. I'll fix it for you:

The fact that he call others in he community scum, and claim it is because they are boorish and obnoxious is one of the first signs that he opinions are probably full of projection, and more than likely overflowing with hyperbole and hypocrisy

I do love that he have posted a whole slew of propaganda videos though. Lovely, I look forward to those

It must truly rankle though that we have no need to use those pronouns he insist are obligatory

And it must infuriate he that women simply won’t do what he want them to do

Me, telling a joke:

“Three men walk into a bar…”

Terribly progressive person:

“How do you know how they identify?”

Me:

“Ok, three people who appear to be men walk into a bar”

TPP:

“Why are you gatekeeping gender? Their gender presentation doesn’t tell you anything about their identity!”

Me:

“OK, three people who appear to be men, although they may or may not present according to gender based norms, and who may or may not object to me making assumptions about their identity walk into a bar…”

TPP:

“WHY ARE YOU SO FOCUSED ON PEOPLES GENDERS??”

Me:

“OK, a horse walks into a bar and the barman says, why the long face?

The horse snaps, don’t body shame me “

The horse snaps, don’t body shame me“

😆😆

That's brilliant, Soph

@MidsomerMurmurs

The fact that you call others in your community scum, and claim it is because they are boorish and obnoxious is one of the first signs that you opinions are probably full of projection, and more than likely overflowing with hyperbole and hypocrisy

I do love that you have posted a whole slew of propaganda videos though. Lovely, I look forward to those

It must truly rankle though that we have no need to use those pronouns you insist are obligatory

And it must infuriate you that women simply won’t do what you want them to do*

Oh dear - you've transgressed here. The poster clearly said that he/him pronouns were obligatory. No second person pronouns allowed, clearly. No possessive pronouns either. I'll fix it for you:

The fact that he call others in he community scum, and claim it is because they are boorish and obnoxious is one of the first signs that he opinions are probably full of projection, and more than likely overflowing with hyperbole and hypocrisy

I do love that he have posted a whole slew of propaganda videos though. Lovely, I look forward to those

It must truly rankle though that we have no need to use those pronouns he insist are obligatory

And it must infuriate he that women simply won’t do what he want them to do

Thanks Midsomer. Grammer is my weak point

I am sure cleddyF will be really much happier with that now.

The horse snaps, don’t body shame me