Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

Someone cant be a female. Someone can be a female person. My problem with females is it sounds creepy/predatory. Other alternatives are: transwomen, or if you want to refer to ciswomen... call them ciswomen.

No. I am not a ‘cis’ anything. I am a female. I am a woman. But since you insist on including males in the definition of woman, I am left using my sex category.

At the end of the day, there are transwomen more informed about feminism than both you and I,

Well you're half right

Cool statistic, doesn't prove your point that sharing public spaces is dangerous. I've explained sex/gender so many times I don't want to repeat myself.

It's not a cool statistic at all.

Think what you're writing please. That's an awful thing to say. And again- on a women's rights board.

At the end of the day, there are transwomen more informed about feminism than both you and I, and there are idiots. There are also completely idiotic feminists who are cis, they too get platforms.

Sure, if you want to believe that, go for it. I, and I expect a huge number of learned feminists, will believe otherwise.

For interest, which trans people do you consider well informed about feminism? I am always up for reading for balance and like to read papers and studies. So please recommend some.

'There are also completely idiotic feminists who are cis, they too get platforms.'

You're assuming gender there.

I don't consider myself learned by the way!

Just s woman who has lived a life which from very young included a deep discomfort with my gender/ sex role and all that flies from it. And bafflement as to why people were always making assumptions about me, seemed more interested in my looks and clothes than my personality. Etc etc

bug, could you just list say the top three or four transwomen who are better informed about feminism than me?

At this point, we are all speaking past each other and repeating ourselves. Neither of us are willing to change stances or learn anything. This conversation is no longer productive but hopefully one day you will realise how misinformed you are.

Datun you probably ought to check you have the same definition of feminism before you ask that!

We can’t not mention the “bathroom” situation as the single sex space used most regularly by the largest amount of people is public toilets.

Transwomen are men, they have male bodies, I acknowledge that some have modified those bodies via surgery and hormones, some have not. I also acknowledge that it would not be desirable from anyone’s point of view to be able to know who has modified their body and who has not.

We also acknowledge as a society that men and women should have separate toilet facilities for reasons of safety, privacy and dignity. I don’t think either side disputes this.

Visually there is no difference between the secondary sex characteristics that are visible when fully clothed of men and transwomen ie height, shape of face, size of hands/feet etc.

Even if transwomen had the same offending rates as women, which they don’t, women can not tell the difference between a genuine transwoman and a predator who has decided to “identify” as a woman to enter a women’s single sex space to hurt women.

@BugWoman

At this point, we are all speaking past each other and repeating ourselves. Neither of us are willing to change stances or learn anything. This conversation is no longer productive but hopefully one day you will realise how misinformed you are.

So that'll be a no then

@NiceGerbil

Datun you probably ought to check you have the same definition of feminism before you ask that!

True 😁

@BugWoman

Helleofabore Are you getting confused between trans men and women. To clarify, a transwomen is a person who was born a man but later transitioned to a woman. And vice versa. I don't particularly care about the female thing but it is grammatically incorrect and makes you sound like a predator (at least in my opinion).

Your constant inference that I am predatory is incredibly offensive.

You are clearly using it to force me to use language that you wish because female is actually a clear and concise description of my sex class.

And when I speak about females, I include transmen. Not sure why you find that confusing. Or do you magically believe that transmen do not experience sexist discrimination due to their female body.

Such as the discrimination in health care and medical research? Just to start.

Oh and, a non medicalised transman (ie without any testosterone supplements) can still play sport as a female.

No. I have no confusion about transmen. I know a number and they still most certainly need protection from sex discrimination for being, you know, females.

Did bug come back with the better informed feminists?

@BugWoman

I guess the problem is we fundamentally disagree on if trans women even are women. As you see them as not, you believe that a man is stealing a women's opportunity whereas I see a woman - an arguably more deserving one - gaining an opportunity. And I doubt i can convince you otherwise

You think trans women are "more deserving" than women.....

Bug what are your feelings on the many pieces like this:

'Girls and women have unique sanitation needs as compared to men. About one-quarter of all adult women globally are menstruating at any given time. Finding private safe locations for menstrual hygiene management is often challenging, especially in urban slums and displacement camps.

“At the most basic level, adolescent girls and women around the world have increased and distinct water and sanitation-related needs, the product of their physiology, reproductive health processes linked to menstruation, and pregnancy, and safety concerns,” writes senior author Marni Sommer, DrPH, MSN, associate professor of Sociomedical Sciences at Columbia Public Health. “This can be especially challenging for girls and women living in low-resource or over-crowded contexts, such as urban slums, displacement camps and informal settlements.”

Constrained access to an adequate toilet with doors and locks and trash bins for menstrual waste disposal often results in stress, embarrassment, physical discomfort and gender-based violence, noted Maggie Schmitt, MPH, a co-author and project director within Sociomedical Sciences.'

How should it be rewritten?

Using girls and women while talking about periods is obviously not good.

Menstruators both over and under 18?

Do you find their obvious push for better, private, safe facilities for menstruators of all ages problematic?

I’ve read through this thread and don’t have a clue what bugwoman is on about . I can only conclude we have two very different conceptions about what “gender” is. The idea that gender is unknowable, undefinable etc just makes no sense to me.

@BugWoman

Obviously, a role that is heavily focused on women shouldn't go to a transwomen especially one that's just transitioned recently. However, a panel with 2 cis and 2 trans women could be beneficial as trans feminism is still important in the discussion. I doubt the first example has happened however and I have no idea what your third paragraph means. Finnally, don't call women 'females' its creepy

Can you specify what, practically, you see as "transitioning"? What, in your opinion, does someone physically do to start transitioning and at what point have they changed gender/sex/ whichever it is you think changes?

It's ok hellebore.

Women/girl meaning female is a reductive biologically essentialist oppressive and exclusionary practice. And also indicative of being a right wing religious fundamentalist.

Using female means that you are 'aligned' to angry rapey predotory men.

Women's place is always in the wrong, natch.

Can we have a word?

NO!

You think trans women are "more deserving" than women.....

Those born male are more deserving of those opportunities that females have to redress the power balance between males and females, than the females themselves.

Have we all got that ?

This conversation is no longer productive

On the contrary. I think I counted you calling me predatory three times, that is pretty eye opening to those reading along.

Also, you did not address one single issue that we put to you. You were the one simply repeating your assertions that some males are more deserving of positions set aside for females than… females.

You had nothing but emotive words it seems. Happy to see some excellent examples and studies. And the names of those more informed feminists.

but hopefully one day you will realise how misinformed you are

I have actually got a long history in understanding the issues around employment rights for females. I am comfortable that I am not misinformed about those.

Neither am I misinformed about the studies that show male puberty advantages over females in sport.

Neither am I misinformed about the significant issues other women have with males in single sex spaces. I listen to them. I listen to what they say they need. They need single sex spaces. So I am completely comfortable fighting for their needs.

Trans people need and deserve their own rights, their own roles set aside for them, for their own representation. If you also listen to trans people, they also say this. It is not progressing both groups if one is allowed to conflict with the other. You at least admitted that it was not representation for females to have newly transitioned males taking roles created for females. Yet, they would be excellent choices to represent trans people in a representative role.

So, no. I don’t think I am misinformed on the topics I posted about tonight. I am always learning and open to reading the evidence put forth by posters who disagree with me.

Women/girl meaning female is a reductive biologically essentialist oppressive and exclusionary practice. And also indicative of being a right wing religious fundamentalist.

Using female means that you are 'aligned' to angry rapey predotory men

I like that the two examples of males who most undeniably displayed their misogyny loud and clear were completely minimised.

I always like to remind posters just who they are aligning themselves with. They never seem to be able to come back lately though.

Of course of don’t like using ‘female’ much. But when a poster shows us that they consider males to be a subset of women, I feel I am left with no option. I either use it or spend energy arguing about the meaning of woman.

@Datun

You think trans women are "more deserving" than women.....

Those born male are more deserving of those opportunities that females have to redress the power balance between males and females, than the females themselves.

Have we all got that ?

Yep! That is exactly what Bug said.

And we are the ones misinformed.