Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

@BugWoman

I have said many times before, lots of trans activists are completely against all gender stereotypes however, I believe that they cannot be removed from society. Because of this, trans people make the most of what they can to make themselves comfortable in their own bodies despite society's gender roles. Sex is altogether irrelevant in all ways except medically. Yes, gender is unidentifiable, indescribable, unverifiable, certainly far from universal, and often fluid. It means different things for each person and that's why legislation gets made for more freedom of gender expression. How can people being allowed to express themselves in any way they want be seen as a bad thing?

How do you address the issue of some cultures preferring boys to the extent that they have a population imbalance?

That's a social issue, a gender/ sex role issue. Girls are not valuable. It's not s medical one.

I can't see how you can tackle that when sex is irrelevant, and the foetuses can't transition.

It's quite amusing that you can't see the issue with writing legislation for a concept that can't be defined.

What differences?

What legislation specifically has been written around gender other than the nonsense about bathrooms and shared spaces.

@NiceGerbil That is because of their gender roles and the value that a boys gender gives him in society rather than their sex. I think you are confusing there two terms.

@BugWoman

Gender roles can change but gender itself is a concept that won't change. Feminism isn't about removing gender from society but rather making them equal while still acknowledging their differences.

Sorry my question 'what differences' was about this post.

Bug woman the equal pay act, off the top of my head.

The idea that men are worth more for their work than women is a gender idea. Some people are sex female. Neutral fact. They are worth less than men in pay. Social view. Gender. The sex doesn't make them be paid less. The ideas about then because of their sex does.

Well there doesn't have to be any differences between the two genders but there are.

How can people being allowed to express themselves in any way they want be seen as a bad thing?

When it requires other people to go along with a lie and that lie requires women to lose their rights to single sex spaces meaning some women have to withdraw from public life because they cannot or will not share spaces with males for reasons of safety, privacy and dignity.

Why can people not express themselves and be who they are and still acknowledge their sex? That would be truly progressive.

'That is because of their gender roles and the value that a boys gender gives him in society rather than their sex. I think you are confusing there two terms.'

The gender/sex role is applied because of their sex.

You can't have gender roles saying female children have low value, if sex is not in the picture.

@BugWoman

Well there doesn't have to be any differences between the two genders but there are.

Like what?

And two genders? What about non binary people?

'How can people being allowed to express themselves in any way they want be seen as a bad thing?'

Well men all over the world and through history have expressed their fears around paternity, from which flows our oppression, all around the world and through history.

So no I don't agree.

'Why can people not express themselves and be who they are and still acknowledge their sex? That would be truly progressive.'

Too tricky, doomed to failure, small gains take a long time to make, is there an easier way.

Gender is assigned because of their sex however the sex itself isn't what dictates the value of the child.
The lie is that sharing public spaces with transwomen is dangerous. It's annoying please don't mention it.
The equal pay act is a good thing because it allows all gender to be equal. I concede that there are some legislation written around gender but it is solely to improve the equality for everyone.

Obviously expressing yourself at the disadvantage to others is a bad thing, but, you haven't accurately explained how trans people expressing themselves however they like is a bad thing except for the stupid bathroom fallacy.
Do you want me to list some gender stereotypes or can you think of some on your own?

'The equal pay act is a good thing because it allows all gender to be equal.'

I'd not agree with that take.

The legislation says that the sexes should get equal pay for equal work. If that were achieved (ha!) then that aspect of gender would no longer exist. The idea that women should get paid less than men would not exist- that gender idea would be gone.

How can people being allowed to express themselves in any way they want be seen as a bad thing?

When it harms another group of people.

Such as allowing males to compete in female sports at risk of injuring those women and girls or for those women and girls to lose funding, scholarships and accolades that will further their careers.

Such as a male taking a role set aside for a female to ensure that females are fully considered in policies, laws etc that role is involved in setting. Or taking an award created to encourage a girl or woman that will bring them opportunities they can use to legacy discrimination based on their sex.

Such as males gaining access to female only single sex spaces and health care provisions. It is quite remarkable that in 2021 it has to be legislated that female rape victims can legally request a female examiner… but there we have it.

Such as women being prevented from meeting, organising and even just discussing the potential conflicts of ’people being allowed to express themselves in any way they want’.

This is just a few generic areas of where I see people being allowed to express themselves being a bad thing. Because it is not just expressing themselves. It is demanding another group’s rights and diluting them or significantly eroding them.

How is it the acts fault for it not being properly enforced? If there was no equal pay act, the wage gap would be much larger than it currently is.

I haven't mentioned 'bathrooms'.

You said that 'Well there doesn't have to be any differences between the two genders but there are.'.

I asked what differences you refer to stereotypes.

I think then that ties in with your idea that changing aspects of sex role/ gender role is just too hard?

So your answer is to say yes the oppressive aspects of sex/ gender role are inviolable. If anyone doesn't like them they can opt out.

How does this help the girls and women and men and boys who can't opt out?

How in practice does your approach help the oppression of women and girls around the world. With as many have said. A gender role that is imposed because of their sex.

If sex is irrelevant
Gender/ sex roles are too hard to change

I guess the problem is we fundamentally disagree on if trans women even are women. As you see them as not, you believe that a man is stealing a women's opportunity whereas I see a woman - an arguably more deserving one - gaining an opportunity. And I doubt i can convince you otherwise

BugWoman you really need to visit Specsavers.

I've never said changing gender roles/ stereotypes is too hard. I said that removing gender all together is too hard. I hope you understand the difference.

That again is out of context to the current conversation.

We have been asking each other questions about sex and gender etc. What they mean. How they intersect. What approach is needed to improve people's lives around the world when impacted by their sex/ gender role.

First bathrooms (?!) now you're assuming my beliefs.

I'm not sure what opportunities you mean either. It would be interesting to understand more what you mean by that.

you haven't accurately explained how trans people expressing themselves however they like is a bad thing except for the stupid bathroom fallacy.

And what about single sex refuges, prisons, support groups such as breastfeeding and menopause groups. Is it ok for women to have these spaces as female only?

And what you call a ‘stupid bathroom fallacy’ doesn’t help the women who exclude themselves from toilets because they may encounter a male there. That you call it stupid (unless I have misread your post), shows a lack of empathy for those women.

@SengaMac

BugWoman you really need to visit Specsavers.

Great contribution, I've been proven wrong /s