Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

A trans academic just posted this definition

'well, i think it’s like your definition of “firefighter”—quite circular, as it goes, because it is a messy, socialized term. a woman is a person who is, or has been, presumed to adopt a passive role in sexual intercourse and a reproductive role in economic life. it’s not perfect'

You may not agree with it but it's been put out there.

I don't find that particularly empowering tbh.

Woman was also been defined as

A formless (something or other I forget)
Anyone who identifies as a woman

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of definitions that do indeed mean that it makes it pretty hard to say which people are women without further information from each individual.

@BugWoman

I am glad so many of you are completely against the concept of gender. Perhaps I underemphasised the amount of trans activists who are completely against the concept of gender like lots of you. But i still believe removing gender in its entirety is nothing more than a pointless fantasy as it is essentially impossible. As well as this, the existence of trans people doesn't box everyone else into their genders as most transactivists believe that people's gender expression can come in any form. This means that cis women can be masculine and trans men can still be feminine; this is also why neo pronouns exist so that people can express their gender identity in any form they want.

What I think the trans analysis misses in its emphasis on the personal experience of gender is that society’s sex-based gender roles shape our personalities and the way society treats us even when we reject them. So a trans woman* transitioning to womanhood also redefines womanhood around her own experience of life in a male body. She brings with her male privilege. We see that traditional expectation of the male to assert their experience as the neutral, true one when she requires that the female experience is disassociated from womanhood in favour of her own, personal definition of womanhood.

But it doesn’t stop there: it’s not enough to redefine womanhood as not female. Trans ideology also insists that no regrouping of female people to retain their voice, protections and identity under a new name is valid.

This is literally undefining female people.

But female people have historically been denied power and agency due to our actual sex and this is perpetuated even today because society’s cultural tropes and structures favour the male. Being female had consequences for us beyond our personal experience of gender.

Even if you believe the traditional grouping of humans into male and female by body type to be a flawed and irrelevant error, the simple fact that this is how we have been grouped for millennia nevertheless gives it enormous cultural weight and power.

If you think gender is too entrenched to dismantle, it’s got nothing on sex!

Ignoring sex by taking away the words to acknowledge it won’t change that. Allowing individuals to move between gender roles without tackling gender constructs won’t change that. Taking away the possibility to speak of female people as a distinct social group just takes away our ability to highlight and fight that structural bias.

So while the trans women and her allies see her as helping to destroy gender stereotypes by adopting a traditionally female gender role, what she fails to see that by using male privilege to deny the existence of a specifically female experience she is further disempowering female people and silencing female voices in favour of her own male one.

• or trans man transitioning to male, but his socialised privilege and power is much less so the impact on men is negligible.

'. They have broken down stereotypes while still being closely aligned to their gender.'

This doesn't make any sense.

'All of these great strides weren't made by removing women's gender and gender expression but empowering it.'

This doesn't make sense either but I get a feeling that it is pretty dodgy.

women have become even more comfortable in their bodies.

My teenage DD and her friends are definitely less comfortable in their bodies than we were, they're plucked and groomed and polished and spend so much money on it, they all have long, professionally dyed hair. It's definitely much harder to not be "feminine" than the 80s when I was a teenager.

All of these great strides weren't made by removing women's gender and gender expression but empowering it

No they aren't. Gender is a means of control.

The language is odd to me.

You can't 'remove' gender. It's similar to when before all this people would say you can't 'ban' gender. And, an assumption it meant everyone had to wear beige sack-like clothing and have the same hair cut.

It's a usually deliberate pretence at not understanding what women all over the world are fighting for, and pretending it means removing all colour, creativity and essentially fun from the world. Mind you men and boys are brought up to learn/ often think that things would be great if girls/ women stopped spoiling their fun. And of all women, some feminists are the worst of all.

Why can't I pay for sex?
Why can't I seduce this 15yo?
Why do you keep going on about sex offences, I'm nice and it makes me feel sad.
Etc etc etc

And again, why the massive focus on gender expression?

The norms of what you wear, whether you (should) wear cosmetics, whether high heels are the thing for a night out etc etc are prescribed by society. They change all the time.

If some men and women ignore them and dress how they like then it's subversive and some people are uncomfortable with it (some reacting with abuse) but it's in the end to be encouraged that people wear what they please etc. They're just clothes. It's just hair. No matter what the fashion etc things push.

Empowering women's gender expression means what? Saying they can dress how they please? Or saying that adopting the social norms is empowering in some way?

I genuinely don't really get what's trying to be said.

I have no idea what half of these posts mean. They all make no sense. However, I will clarify my stance for any confusion.
Gender can be used to oppress women. But, concepts around gender are important social tools so should still be used. Women haven't gained more equality through distancing themselves from their gender but rather changing stereotypes and allowing more freedom of expression for women.
Anyone can express their gender in anyway they like either going with or against social norms. People can also feel like their assigned gender at birth is completely wrong and rather than change some aspects of their gender expression, they would like to completely change it.
If someone could clarify your points, that would be useful.

@BugWoman half of the confusion seems to be that you are using gender to mean biological sex AND gender identity/expression/behaviour or similar.

For example you talk about "gender assigned at birth". No one is assigned a gender at birth. Their sex is observed and noted. Then there are expectations and cultural/societal roles/behaviours that are expected of people because of their sex. That is gender. Expectations of behaviour/roles based on sex are generally harmful to both sexes.

Gender as sex role puts certain expectations on women and girls which are enforced by society, and in some cases law.

We are placed in our sex role depending on our sex.

This has and does cause massive harm to women and girls around the world. It's about how we think, how we behave, what we are good and bad at, what we like and dislike, what our 'natural' role or place is. Whether we are capable of holding authority, whether we are so untrustworthy we have to be tightly controlled. And so on.

A sex role/ gender stereotype for example girls aren't good at maths. Some individuals might be but they're the exception that proves the rule.

Push to change the accepted narrative. So that society in general believes that girls and boys can be good at maths, or not.

Whether you are likely to be good at maths or not is no longer something that society attaches to sex. The gender/ sex role for girls in that country no longer exists. Girls are freed from that little piece of stereotyped expectation and messaging.

I agree that bug you seem to be conflating different definitions /switching between them.

I'm very particular about my language and I understand the difference between gender and sex. When children are born, their gender is assumed to be the same as their sex. Sex is generally fixed unless serious gender realignment surgery is undergone. Whereas, gender and gender expression can change.

That assumes that

Gender is a solid thing that means the same to everyone

And ignores the point that gender /sex role are confining.

A baby girl is born.
Sex is observed, female.
Baby girl is dressed in pink all the time- gender.

BugWoman

Sex is biological. Whether you are born male or female.

Gender is sex roles and stereotypes. Which are frequently disadvantageous to women and advantageous to men.

The reason why the trans ideology is sexist is because it doesn't say a male can be anything, and therefore bust open gender, it says if a male feels or thinks or expresses himself a certain way, then he must be a woman. Since he's not an adult human female, the only identifier is a sex role stereotype that he believes is typical of women.

It's confining and sexist, and continues to disadvantage women.

And it's breathtakingly extreme.

Which is how we have ended up with violent male rapists being put in female prisons and accessing vulnerable women, as part of their sentence.

Oh, I see BugWoman, it would appear that your definition of gender is some kind of internal essence of maleness or femaleness that everyone has.

That very convenient feeling that is unidentifiable, indescribable, unverifiable, certainly far from universal, and often fluid.

Not something that I think we should be basing laws on.

Feminist position. The application of gendered expectations on all aspects of men and women's lives is restrictive. Let everyone be free of them to behave dress etc etc how they feel comfortable.

Current dominant trans approach.
If you don't feel comfortable in the gender role imposed because of your sex, then you can elect to be the other gender role or something in between.
Sex is irrelevant. Anything referencing it, especially for female people, is exclusionary and unnecessary.

@Datun

BugWoman

Sex is biological. Whether you are born male or female.

Gender is sex roles and stereotypes. Which are frequently disadvantageous to women and advantageous to men.

The reason why the trans ideology is sexist is because it doesn't say a male can be anything, and therefore bust open gender, it says if a male feels or thinks or expresses himself a certain way, then he must be a woman. Since he's not an adult human female, the only identifier is a sex role stereotype that he believes is typical of women.

It's confining and sexist, and continues to disadvantage women.

And it's breathtakingly extreme.

Which is how we have ended up with violent male rapists being put in female prisons and accessing vulnerable women, as part of their sentence.

This.

@Datun Can you site me an article about this male rapist?

Because of the 'sex roles' placed on people, they feel they have to act a certain way. If they do not fit in with these 'sex roles' they way want to transition to the opposite gender to more closely align their brain with their body. However, as I said, just because a man feels feminine doesn't mean they have to transition. As well as this, without these 'sex roles' trans people wouldn't feel any societal pressure thus not have gender dysphoria thus not want to transition. But, as these 'sex roles' aren't going away any time soon, changing your body to more accurately represent the 'sex roles' you display is the best solution for them.

'But, as these 'sex roles' aren't going away any time soon, changing your body to more accurately represent the 'sex roles' you display is the best solution for them.'

Feminists- you are fighting a pointless battle
Girls- if you don't like the way you're treated or the expectations around everything from hobbies to lots of men viewing as a sex object. Then you can transition.

Is that right?

Sorry the bit starting with girls is what I think bug is saying.

Bug, do you have any awareness of how out of line it is to repeatedly tell women on an fwr thread that trying to reduce the oppression due to enforced gender role is pointless and impossible?

Even though women and girls all over the world are treated awfully because of it?

I have said many times before, lots of trans activists are completely against all gender stereotypes however, I believe that they cannot be removed from society. Because of this, trans people make the most of what they can to make themselves comfortable in their own bodies despite society's gender roles. Sex is altogether irrelevant in all ways except medically.
Yes, gender is unidentifiable, indescribable, unverifiable, certainly far from universal, and often fluid. It means different things for each person and that's why legislation gets made for more freedom of gender expression. How can people being allowed to express themselves in any way they want be seen as a bad thing?

[quote BugWoman]@Datun Can you site me an article about this male rapist?

Because of the 'sex roles' placed on people, they feel they have to act a certain way. If they do not fit in with these 'sex roles' they way want to transition to the opposite gender to more closely align their brain with their body. However, as I said, just because a man feels feminine doesn't mean they have to transition. As well as this, without these 'sex roles' trans people wouldn't feel any societal pressure thus not have gender dysphoria thus not want to transition. But, as these 'sex roles' aren't going away any time soon, changing your body to more accurately represent the 'sex roles' you display is the best solution for them.[/quote]
bug

Karen White is far from alone. There is a newspaper report below.

If you google the organisation keep prisons single sex, you will see exactly how many male sex offenders have been put into female prisons.

Half of transwomen in prison are there for sex offences. A GRC gives automatic and instant access to the female estate.

thebridgehead.ca/2020/01/22/prison-officials-swampted-by-male-convicts-identifying-as-female-in-order-to-get-sent-to-female-prisons/

There is no such thing as a man with a female brain. Seriously.

It sounds like you are interested, but haven't read too much about it.

Can I recommend that you just read a bit more?

Start with this

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Gender roles can change but gender itself is a concept that won't change. Feminism isn't about removing gender from society but rather making them equal while still acknowledging their differences.