Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

Everyone at my work has to express views that would be seen as transphobic I assume, because biological sex is very relevant to what we do.

Essentially, as we are all products of our society, trans individuals feel pressured to act a certain way due to their assigned gender at birth. It is widely accepted in the trans community that if trans people lived in a complete social vacuum then it is unlikely they would experience gender dysphoria. Of course, lots of trans activists are in fact against the gender binary and the stereotypes and expectations created by it. However, categorizations like gender can be useful so many trans activists do still support gender. As well as this, it is much easier to improve the liberties for a small group of people rather than try to breakdown a long standing concept like gender which is present in most cultures around the world which is why trans activists aren't completely gender critical.
Hope this clears thing up

' As well as this, it is much easier to improve the liberties for a small group of people rather than try to breakdown a long standing concept like gender which is present in most cultures around the world'

How fucking lazy.

Women have been trying to do this forever. Why not join with women who want an end to sex stereotyping and work together?

Rather than enforce gender and stick two fingers up at women and girls especially the ones who have been fighting now and through history?

It's shit.

@BugWoman

Essentially, as we are all products of our society, trans individuals feel pressured to act a certain way due to their assigned gender at birth. It is widely accepted in the trans community that if trans people lived in a complete social vacuum then it is unlikely they would experience gender dysphoria. Of course, lots of trans activists are in fact against the gender binary and the stereotypes and expectations created by it. However, categorizations like gender can be useful so many trans activists do still support gender. As well as this, it is much easier to improve the liberties for a small group of people rather than try to breakdown a long standing concept like gender which is present in most cultures around the world which is why trans activists aren't completely gender critical. Hope this clears thing up

Really? It's easier to convince society that people can actually change sex than to get society to accept that some people don't conform to sex stereotypes?

@BugWoman

Essentially, as we are all products of our society, trans individuals feel pressured to act a certain way due to their assigned gender at birth. It is widely accepted in the trans community that if trans people lived in a complete social vacuum then it is unlikely they would experience gender dysphoria. Of course, lots of trans activists are in fact against the gender binary and the stereotypes and expectations created by it. However, categorizations like gender can be useful so many trans activists do still support gender. As well as this, it is much easier to improve the liberties for a small group of people rather than try to breakdown a long standing concept like gender which is present in most cultures around the world which is why trans activists aren't completely gender critical. Hope this clears thing up

This is literally the gender critical viewpoint other than we don’t want to force everyone else to stay in boxes for our own benefit.

It helps clarify that (if most trans people and allies do think as you say) that the “hateful T*RFs” they are reacting to are a product of their own prejudices and nothing to do with what real gender critical people are saying.

Do the trans people and allies who think this way understand just how damaging and limiting gender is to so-called “cis” women?

Honestly, trying to truly support and free trans people to be happy in themselves without dealing with the whole fucked up concept that is gender is like trying to repaper a water damaged wall before you fix the leak.

Fix the root problem, the actual cause, and then deal with any residual issues. Don’t just keep papering over the surface with bigger and bigger patches and wonder why problems keep coming back.

@BugWoman very succinctly put, thank you. It reminds me a bit of the struggle for gay rights - I think historically there wasn’t so much a concept of homosexual people, just same sex attraction and sexual behaviour (which was of course generally viewed as deviant). The first step to fighting for gay rights was to establish that there are people ‘born gay’ who have no choice or capacity for opposite sex attraction, and therefore their behaviours are not their ‘fault’. If you read the debates in parliament on the partial decriminalisation of homosexual sex it’s clear that it was begrudgingly granted on this basis. Then, once you’ve laid the groundwork of some very basic limited rights and recognition, you set about the wider battle of convincing society that same sex relationships are equally valid and healthy as opposite sex ones - ultimately resulting in eg equal age of consent, adoption rights, same sex marriage and protections from discrimination. As well as a more nuanced view of sexuality as potentially fluid rather than binary.

I see the fight for acceptance of trans people as a step on the road to breaking down gender norms - provided it’s argued in the right nuanced way (ie no ‘female/male brain’, ‘born in the wrong body’, or ‘pink is for girls’).

I am glad so many of you are completely against the concept of gender. Perhaps I underemphasised the amount of trans activists who are completely against the concept of gender like lots of you. But i still believe removing gender in its entirety is nothing more than a pointless fantasy as it is essentially impossible. As well as this, the existence of trans people doesn't box everyone else into their genders as most transactivists believe that people's gender expression can come in any form. This means that cis women can be masculine and trans men can still be feminine; this is also why neo pronouns exist so that people can express their gender identity in any form they want.

this is also why neo pronouns exist so that people can express their gender identity in any form they want.

That's fine, as long as laws aren't based on it, and women can still have spaces segregated away from men for their privacy dignity and safety.

@Helen8220 Just as the journey to equality for trans people has been very similar to that of gay rights. The anti-trans talking points are almost identical to those made against gay rights years ago.
But both of these issues were made by conservative think tanks to galvanize voters so its no surprise they are so similar. I think it goes to show that progressive policies will eventually become the norm and all of the reactionary conservatives will jump ship to the next big 'culture war' battle.

As I said in an earlier part of the thread, some people sound like they've been smoking pot.
But it is Friday so it's to be expected.

' But i still believe removing gender in its entirety is nothing more than a pointless fantasy as it is essentially impossible.'

Gender is the structure that supports and excuses the oppression of women and girls all over the world.

Gender role/ sex role is everything from rape myths to legal rape within marriage, to child marriage, to banning abortion, to not educating girls as much as boys, to 'honour' killings, to fgm, to dry sex, and on and on and on.

Glibly saying oh yeah well it's so entrenched what can you do is not the view I would expect from someone who cites gay rights, given that gender role is also the reason that homosexuality was considered wrong in the first place.

'most transactivists believe that people's gender expression can come in any form'

Why is it so often about how you 'present'?

When of all the problems that enforced gender norms causes, for women and girls. Yes we talk about it but there's so many truly horrendous things happening because of it that to flag what you wear and leave everything else seems to be missing rather a lot.

Obviously those things are terrible however eradicating gender isn't a solution that many people want. There are much more effective ways to target these specific issues than eradicating gender. Just like removing all concepts of race would stop racism most people don't want that as they are proud of their culture/background, and still there are ways of tackling racism. I feel like I'm repeating myself but I strongly believe it is impossible to remove gender from all cultures around the world completely.

Removing sex doesn't stop sexism.

It's not about 'eradicating gender' I'm not sure what that means.

It's about understanding that gender role is enormously oppressive to women and girls (and men and boys) all over the world and results in a range of things from the seemingly trivial to the abhorrent.

Trying to tackle these things without recognising the underpinning causes, and ignoring the fact that there is something in common with people with certain bodies and the way they are oppressed undermines everything.

@BugWoman it’s all very well saying you can’t get rid of gender, I agree we’ll probably never get rid of gender totally and I think a lot of people wouldn’t want to either, but that is why we have laws to protect women from things like maternity discrimination and to give women access to same sex services where required.

You can’t just label those women who want same sex services as socially conservative so stuff them and their needs.

Well quite.

The push to invisibilise sex as an axis of oppression will not help address any of the things that are done. But will remove the ability to talk about it at a class level, or recognise it.

These people get a better education than these people. Hard to say why. Need to study what might be driving it. Eye colour? Ability to learn? They don't want to go to school? Let's do some studies.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but I strongly believe it is impossible to remove gender from all cultures around the world completely.

Women were considered to uninformed to vote. In fact it was thought that their husbands would just have two votes.

They were considered to unworldly to educate hence not having access to university.

Within my lifetime, they were considered to be too irresponsible to manage their own money, hence a male having to countersign a mortgage. As recent as the 80s, a pub landlord could refuse to serve a woman, based solely on the fact that she was female.

As recently as the early 90s, it was completely legal for a man to rape his wife, because a woman's role was to supply sex.

So you have uninformed, unworldly, irresponsible, dependent, and a sex object. All this is gender. All of it imposed without consent.

Women are oppressed because of their sex, and gender is the means by which it's done.

If you don't think women are managing to remove gender, you're not paying attention.

And if you don't think they are going to continue to do it, then you are believing in those gender stereotypes rather more than you ought.

Thanks for agreeing with me exactly. I doubt that was your intention but that is the exact point I was making.

@Datun But women are still women. They haven't removed gender in order to get these rights. And with the second and third waves of feminism women have become even more comfortable in their bodies. They have broken down stereotypes while still being closely aligned to their gender. There is a shared unity for all women across the plant. I would argue that woman ship, and thus gender, are becoming even more prevalent in todays society.
All of these great strides weren't made by removing women's gender and gender expression but empowering it.

@BugWoman

Thanks for agreeing with me exactly. I doubt that was your intention but that is the exact point I was making.

My intention is to gets a many people as possible to understand that imposed gender norms disadvantage women and that trans ideology relies on them.

@Datun that was intended for the 2 posts above you.
sorry for the confusion

Women aren't still women though.

It used to mean adult human female and still does to 99.9% of the world's population (or the equivalent word in their language).

Now it means anyone who identifies as a woman.

Gender ID cannot be assumed.

Therefore if these people are being educated and not these people. Then first you need to identify the gender identities of the ones being educated / not.

This will be tricky as they are likely never too have heard of the concept so you'll have to explain that very carefully first and make sure they are not taking gender to mean sex (as is usual in the UK).

Then you need to see what's what.

If you have any children who do not have an internal gender ID, or it does not match their birth sex, those children are boy or girl or non binary etc.

The result is likely to show that being a girl or a boy is not driving the difference.

So then you need to look for what is.

@BugWoman I’m glad you agree that there’s nothing progressive at all about allowing men to identify into women’s same sax spaces.