Compromise for new FWR section - could you support this?

[shesellsseacats]

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough, if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, how about MN keeps this main topic as Feminism Chat, same as now (all feminist related topics welcome) and then add a feminist sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.

This will give those who want it, a section free from this discussion, but be much less of a moderation headache for MN.

Win-win, no?!

Could you get behind this?

If so, what could the new sub-topic be called? (Some sensible answers, please! I'd love MN to take this seriously.)

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I think everyone on here thinks its a stupid fucking idea

BUT

If they are deffo going to do it then I’d rather this board was untouched

Me too.

@shesellsseacats I think everyone is clearly hoping that @MNHQ actually pay attention and scrap this idea and leave FWR as it is!

What are the chances of that happening, do we think?

[quote StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind]**@shesellsseacats* I think everyone is clearly hoping that @MNHQ* actually pay attention and scrap this idea and leave FWR as it is!

What are the chances of that happening, do we think? [/quote]
Dunno, it came from Justine.

Yes it is an extraordinary suggestion. I assumed MNHQ had a fairly good grasp of this stuff, or were working on a free speech principle. Especially the idea that the board could be called women's/trans rights . Could a rogue intern have been given the keys to Justine's account today?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

OP is correct in terms of what Justine has said on Site Stuff. It's not ideal but it's not her fault. It's a possible compromise. Don't shoot the messenger.

Thanks

No. Just no. Feminism can't exist if we aren't be able to discuss and organise to uphold our rights. I don't want to be hived off into a subsection.

I do think your idea is far better than hiving off or splitting - someone needs to define what the new board is for. So let them - whether MNHQ or whoever has been campaigning for it.

I would also be afraid of losing all the older threads in a shuffle, so keeping this board, not two new boards, seems vital. So yes, I'd be relieved to see MNHQ agree to your plan.

@Floisme

I don't know op, you're trying to be positive and I feel a bit churlish arguing with you. I just have a strong feeling that it won't solve the objections to FWR. You see, I don't think any of this is really about a desire for a new, additional space because it it were, wouldn't the suggestion have been made already? I suspect the issue is that what is wanted is this space, and that therefore this compromise, admirable as it sounds, won't achieve anything. But maybe I've just had a bad day!

Oh yes I totally agree, some people definitely want us to be purged from this space.

I don't know what's happened for this to seem like a good idea to Justine, but Justine isn't a TRA. If she was, this section would have gone years ago.

@TheFnozwhowasmirage

No. Just no. Feminism can't exist if we aren't be able to discuss and organise to uphold our rights. I don't want to be hived off into a subsection.

Neither do I. That's what this thread is about. How to we stop that happening?

@xxyzz

a) I don't understand how this is intended to work. How can you talk about feminism and not mention say sexism? Presumably banned as it references the word sex. Or the so-called gender pay gap, banned as it references gender, which is banned.

It's like having a Health board where you're not allowed to mention illness or a Relationships board where you're not allowed to mention the terms husband, partner etc or abbreviations.

b) Why on earth has MN, which has stood strong in defence of its female audience and userbase - without which it doesn't have a business - suddenly succumbed to an attack of what I can only say appears to be cowardice, straight after a judge and the EHRC have officially pronounced that women DO have the right to discuss sex and gender and have opinions on these things?

Why now??

It's baffling!

Would be fine with your idea OP.

I have read so many threads on the non-FWR boards which are fundamentally about sexism and sex, just as a few examples,

The one about the man wanting to talk to the poster’s DH because she would not let him park on her drive.

The frequent ones on women being financially abused because, as typically the lower paid, they are expected to take on all childcare, house management etc when they marry and have children and give up their financial independence.

The unbelievably frequent ones where the pain from gynae and period issues are deemed non important by GPs and as something that has to be suffered because that’s just part of being a woman.

All of these threads are about sex, not whether the poster is wearing a frock and heels. Feminism and women’s sex based rights are important as evidenced by the fact that they are not solely discussed in FWR. Now is not the time to shut down discussion.

Given that this just another attempt to silence women, I think OP's suggestion is the lesser of 2 evils.

@JustbackfromBangkok

Given that this just another attempt to silence women, I think OP's suggestion is the lesser of 2 evils.

I agree.

I'm shocked at MN doing this now- the timing really is bizarre.

I came on FWR by chance and have found it a real source of information and support - would hate for it to go, but somewhere where sex/gender issues can be discussed is SO important - whatever it takes to keep a space open is the lesser of two evils as the poster says above. But it is wierd timing when people are starting to wake up to the issues.

The FWR board and feminism chat boards need to stay as they are. Hiving off this subject or that topic will lead to fewer opportunities for discussion of news and sharing ideas as divisiveness doesn't give a good platform for sharing views whether critical or acknowledging success.

I too suspect an increase in aggro towards MNHQ given recent events with Maya and Marian Millar, but this is a space where women can discuss such matters without descending into the cesspit of Hades that is Twitter.

Taking a (metaphorical) filleting knife to this board would be a very bad decision, please don't do it. I believe that women won't wheesht still holds for many of us.

No, I like everything in one place. I only click on threads that interest me. I think also there would be too much overlap. Most discussions about women's rights start with biology.

Think it's interesting the number of people saying that gender and identity and trans rights are the most important feminist issues right now. Seriously? What about the women murdered every 3 days, domestic violence, safe streets, nudes in schools, pay gap, abortions in Texas?? Trans people cause none of those things, they are overwhelmingly caused by straight, cis men, who are the powerful group in a patriarchy . But as the most powerful group they are harder to fight than a minority without political representation. Feels as though people like to call themselves feminists, hang some ribbons and go after a minority group as an easy way to feel like they're making a difference. Would be great if this was a more lib feminist board, then it could focus on the actual issues affecting daily lives of women, rather than this GC distraction stuff.

@TRHR

Think it's interesting the number of people saying that gender and identity and trans rights are the most important feminist issues right now. Seriously? What about the women murdered every 3 days, domestic violence, safe streets, nudes in schools, pay gap, abortions in Texas?? Trans people cause none of those things, they are overwhelmingly caused by straight, cis men, who are the powerful group in a patriarchy . But as the most powerful group they are harder to fight than a minority without political representation. Feels as though people like to call themselves feminists, hang some ribbons and go after a minority group as an easy way to feel like they're making a difference. Would be great if this was a more lib feminist board, then it could focus on the actual issues affecting daily lives of women, rather than this GC distraction stuff.

I've seen all of those issues discussed on the FWR board as it stands, though? And discussions linking the schools issue with rapid onset gender dysphoria especially, though all are related to women's oppression as a sex class, surely?

I don't think people are going after a minority group. They're asking to be allowed to discuss the big issues you mention, even if this raises points which some trans rights activists object to.

It feels a bit like MN would like to hide us away for talking about sex and gender, but these are pretty central to feminism! This seems a bit odd after the MF ruling yesterday.

You've got the rest of Mumsnet for lib feminism.
There was a thread in aibu not too long ago suggesting we should scrap women's prizes in acting and just have best actor instead. No one seemed to realise that women would never win.
Sounds right up lib fem ally to me.

Leave FWR as it is

@TRHR

Think it's interesting the number of people saying that gender and identity and trans rights are the most important feminist issues right now. Seriously? What about the women murdered every 3 days, domestic violence, safe streets, nudes in schools, pay gap, abortions in Texas?? Trans people cause none of those things, they are overwhelmingly caused by straight, cis men, who are the powerful group in a patriarchy . But as the most powerful group they are harder to fight than a minority without political representation. Feels as though people like to call themselves feminists, hang some ribbons and go after a minority group as an easy way to feel like they're making a difference. Would be great if this was a more lib feminist board, then it could focus on the actual issues affecting daily lives of women, rather than this GC distraction stuff.

Are you aware that women are trying to discuss all of these things all the time, and being told “what about the men/you can’t say “women”/if your feminism doesn’t centre trans women it isn’t feminism”?

How can we talk about abortion, rape, murder, pay gap etc. if we aren’t able to talk about who women actually are? Or if when we do, we’re told we are the “cis” oppressors? Or if we aren’t able to tell exactly what the pay gap is or the rape figures are because the data doesn’t distinguish on the basis of sex? Or if we can’t talk accurately about porn culture in schools because a lot of it is intrinsically connected to ideas about gender identity?

That’s why women here think the gender/sex issue is important. It’s fundamental to all of those things you describe above.

On another thread women here are discussing companies’ increasing removal of the word “women” in favour of “menstruating person” and “menstruator” etc - and very explicitly to delink menstruation from being a girl or woman. Mention was made of “menstrual equity” activists. How are we going to tell what on Earth this means, if we can’t use the words “women” and “girls”? Who is experiencing inequity and why?

How are we going to address a pay gap if we can’t measure it or talk about it?

I think you’re confusing trans people with gender identity ideology. Gender identity ideology impacts on every one of the things you’ve mentioned above. It gives men a free pass to do whatever they like, whilst women’s experiences, voices and words get erased, because under gender identity ideas “cis” women become oppressors and lose the right to even define themselves.

So how is this different from transwomen wanting to take the word woman?

Is Mumsnet really saying feminists can only talk about knitting in the FWR main forum & thinking that FWR will still be the one that pretty much always has a post or three in the Active threads?

Moving the ability to talk about the most vicious threat to women in my lifetime (the encroachment into our language & lives as it relates to sex & gender) to a different forum will just make the new location become the new FWR forum that has all the activity in it while the rest continue to echo to the distant sounds of tumbleweeds as nothing really relevant or important to real women is allowed to be posted.

Instead of moving 90%+ of the threads from this board into a new board, why not move the minority into a puppies & rainbows forum where they can pretend womens safety & security is not under threat.

If anyone knows of any other womens forums where free speech is allowed & gender critical is not regarded as foul language, please message me how to find them/join them.
I don't use twitter etc... so haven't found anywhere else I can keep up with current events that matter to me as an adult human female.

It won't work.

For the mere fact we all see sex no matter how much some try to pretend they don't. We all know the sex we are. Trans identity is based on the refusal of it. Non-binary identity is based on the denial of it. Women's identity is based on the acceptance of material reality.

Gender on the other hand is based on stereotypes. No matter now much we deny its not. It is manifested in discrimination, trying to copy dress/voice/mannerism etc, a total denial of these stereotypes even though we know they are happening.

Is it possible to please everyone and talk about one without talking about the other when you talk about feminism?

Good luck with that as a plan.

The problem is that woman's rights and issues always sit on these cross roads and these conflict with the political ambitions of several political parties and Stonewall.

You can't talk about women's rights without the trans conflict popping up at some point. If you talk about refuges and you suddenly have males who can self identify as women where does that leave the refugee? Are the interests of the two groups the same.

Time and again the thing that crops up is that ultimately women and trans people have different priorities and concerns. These need unpicking properly rather than trying to pretend there isn't an issue and ignoring the great big herd of elephants in the room.

To say you can split debate along gender and sex lines is to massively lack any understanding of the problems and challenges women face in their lives either by accident or design. Women's Rights require us to discuss both - and usually in conjunction with each other - at a fundamental level

I do think the ultimate discrimination comes from simulantaneously conflating sex and gender whilst being unable to clearly discuss both. They are not interchangeable but they also are both issues which can not be unhooked from women's rights and discrimination against women because they feed into each other.

For example, women are physically weaker and smaller than men in general. This is then converted to women are unwomanly for not being dainty and feminine enough or discrimination suggesting they are incapable of certain 'male' tasks without being allowed the chance to first demonstrate capability.

The two are conjoined twins. The attempt to separate will kill FWR.