Compromise for new FWR section - could you support this?

[shesellsseacats]

Sex self ID / sex and gender and related questions are THE main topic of feminism at the moment. This shouldn't be hidden away.

But fair enough, if people want a section that doesn't have this topic in it.

So, how about MN keeps this main topic as Feminism Chat, same as now (all feminist related topics welcome) and then add a feminist sub-topic that's for those who don't want to discuss sex and gender.

This will give those who want it, a section free from this discussion, but be much less of a moderation headache for MN.

Win-win, no?!

Could you get behind this?

If so, what could the new sub-topic be called? (Some sensible answers, please! I'd love MN to take this seriously.)

[quote IvyTwines2]@shesellsseacats hi, my objection was to the originally proposed idea of moving the discussion away, which comes across as hiding it, especially from newcomers to the subject, not to your comment or attempt at a compromise. So many of these subjects are interlinked though, especially sexual harassment and online porn to the rapid rise in girls identifying as 'trans' or 'non binary', and we need to be able to see and discuss the big picture.[/quote]
Ah, I see, sorry!

Yes I totally agree.

Actually, there's part of me that thinks "crack on". I don't post much anymore after all the hate years ago that culminated in Dittany not being around anymore because it was clear that loads of people were reading, judging and taking notes for the next lancing of boils. Always with the premise of "I'd post but feel that I can't because of all of those nasty women". So, here we are again. So, hive off the most important discussions for women in years. Let's see what happens.

Keep FC as is.

Do away with the F sub sections nobody uses (4 of them)

Create a Gender/Trans Chat forum where activists and allies can post.

You'd still end up with fewer forums for admin purposes.

I find this absurd. This board has substantially increased the number of people visiting and taking part in discussions on a wide range of topics. It is alive and thriving. What on earth would be the benefit of changing it.
What aspects of feminism is it that people can't discuss? No one is compelled to read every thread, let alone every comment. If there's a demand it would be apparent in the new threads started.
Does this just apply to sex/gender or will it extend to wrong think about sex work, porn and the prison system.?

To be clear, op, I don't think your solution is a bad one, but I am seriously irked that we seem to be the ones expected to find a compromise and then do the heavy lifting to make it happen. It feels like women's lives in microcosm.

I think everyone on here thinks its a stupid fucking idea

BUT

If they are deffo going to do it then I’d rather this board was untouched

It is also naive to imagine that the people who are displeased with us regular FWR posters wouldn't be just as displeased with us anywhere else. Giving up this space does not mean they won't follow us to the new space and keep complaining.

Because the aim is not to have us discuss somewhere else, the aim is to SHUT WOMEN UP.

Doesn't work for me either.

We discuss all kinds of things here, porn, surrogacy, sex trafficking, domestic abuse, gender ideology (in everything from government, charities, supermarkets and schools). Sex is obviously relevant. How would we know where to post?

Creating a sub topic as means to bury these discussions tells me one thing.

Someone doesn't want us talking about them. At all.

It would be interesting to know the statistics for the last year of those who got to FWR/first go there. IIRC the last couple of times showed numbers many multiples higher than any of the other boards.

I don't in principle see why fewer numbers would go to a "FWR here be transphobes" board and the lib dems board. It's obvious many many women are interested in the sex/gender debate. I just instinctively jib against it because we've so marginalised anyway, this just feels like salt in the thousands of paper cuts.

Lib fems. Not sure anyone is going to a lib dems board these days

@Floisme

To be clear, op, I don't think your solution is a bad one, but I am seriously irked that we seem to be the ones expected to find a compromise and then do the heavy lifting to make it happen. It feels like women's lives in microcosm.

You're not wrong it really is a microcosm of our lives.

No one us asking us to do it, but if we don't try then we accept we lose this board.

What choice do we have except roll over or fight? (Just like life, again).

@OhHolyJesus

Doesn't work for me either.

We discuss all kinds of things here, porn, surrogacy, sex trafficking, domestic abuse, gender ideology (in everything from government, charities, supermarkets and schools). Sex is obviously relevant. How would we know where to post?

Creating a sub topic as means to bury these discussions tells me one thing.

Someone doesn't want us talking about them. At all.

So, does my suggestion work for you, instead?

I think MNHQ can try to hide us away but how many of us found feminist chat or FWR through a Google search when something in the news about self ID made us sit up and take notice and we wanted to know more. The thread titles mean we will always be found.

I absolutely disagree with this proposal, it seems like an attempt to silence us after the judgement yesterday but on reflection I know they can try but they won't succeed.

The defence of sex based rights on FWR seems to me to be the prevailing view, voting on related threads on AIBU, more recently, nearly always reflect GC or radical feminist views even if the women posting there may not describe themselves as either.

I think if MN want to split the board they really ought to create a new subsection for people not happy with the current feminist board and leave us alone. Perhaps it could be called the validation express.

There have been repeated threads started (never by long term members) to the effect of oh all the threads I'd love to post on FWR but I can't because of you making it an awful place all about GC issues.

I'll guess there's been some carpet bombing of HQ.

From bitter experience of running groups HQ: those who come to you saying 'I'd participate if you'd only do x' (and shut up/stop that group/clique) never actually do participate when you do it. You just upset and turn off your key users.

I'm also honestly not sure how you're going to have feminist chat that manages to ignore the gazillion elephants currently galumphing through feminism and women's rights. But fine, have a libfem board. I shan't be reading or posting there, because it's women's rights that matter to me.

No. Not happy about this at all. It would be a retrograde step for sure.

You can’t remove sex from feminism even if you might want to - it’s absolutely integral to the subject!

I'll guess there's been some carpet bombing of HQ.

Yup the monitors terrified of more sunlight after yesterday.

And yes @shesellsseacats I agree that your suggestion is a far better one than what MNHQ are proposing to do.

I don't know op, you're trying to be positive and I feel a bit churlish arguing with you. I just have a strong feeling that it won't solve the objections to FWR.
You see, I don't think any of this is really about a desire for a new, additional space because it it were, wouldn't the suggestion have been made already? I suspect the issue is that what is wanted is this space, and that therefore this compromise, admirable as it sounds, won't achieve anything. But maybe I've just had a bad day!

@Floisme

I don't know op, you're trying to be positive and I feel a bit churlish arguing with you. I just have a strong feeling that it won't solve the objections to FWR. You see, I don't think any of this is really about a desire for a new, additional space because it it were, wouldn't the suggestion have been made already? I suspect the issue is that what is wanted is this space, and that therefore this compromise, admirable as it sounds, won't achieve anything. But maybe I've just had a bad day!

I agree with this.

But @shesellsseacats I also think your proposal is better than @MNHQ

I suspect the issue is that what is wanted is this space, and that therefore this compromise, admirable as it sounds, won't achieve anything.

The issue is that we have ANY space. We will be followed where ever we go.

No, Feminism is about the Human Rights of Women as whole human autonomous beings, if that is some folks concerns then they in all honesty can't call themselves feminist. Hiding Women who care about the Human Rights of all Females away in some dusty corner is exactly what this society and era is trying to do and I want a record open to all for my daughters to know that when push came to shove, there were Women who stood up and said No you cannot reduce, remove, appropriate or erase the Human Rights that females fought for. Sub threads = sub humans = sub categories. Mumsnet "chooses" to moderate our speech and beliefs, well that's up to them & they can get on with it. Cheers. X

I couldn’t support this - it’s completely integral to pretty much all feminist issues at the moment, and so many women want a chance to discuss it. In any other board on MN if you don’t like the topic, you don’t open the thread!

Sounds like policing womens speech to me... wasnt there some attempt to split this board into Lib Fem and Rad Fem a while ago.. I think that was not super successful!

We've had this discussion before. Splitting the feminism board into gender critical and third wave sections.

The danger is that activists will put pressure on Mumsnet to close the GC board. After all, MN would still have a feminism board - just one where you weren't allowed to criticise gender ideology.