I've just been called "unscientific" for saying that you cannot change sex

[CloudyMoment]

It's just a rant really, but also fishing for possible counter-arguments.

I thought that nobody really properly argues against the fact that sex is something you are born with, and that his cannot be changed.

Apparently those people think sex is not immutable. That it actually can change- because apparently also eye colour can change throughout life. I tried arguing against, that we are still born with a coded expression hair or eye colour, and that this does not change. I feel that this is very much a philosophical discussion to be had.. but meanwhile. How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

Ask them how babies are born?

Because the chromosomes don't change? Can you ask for hard evidence of a person who has changed sex?

lols. Cause it is not clear cut. That's what trans and scientific people find funny:

Science is messy and complicated, so it’s best to steer clear of it and stick to a few slogans, such as “Sex is real.” (This one has the advantage of implying that trans people deny that sex is real, which makes them seem unreasonable.) Don’t, whatever you do, talk to actual biologists or psychologists currently working on the subjects of sex or gender. They are obviously interested in maintaining the trans-friendly status quo, and their testimony can be ignored. (Side note: you may have wondered whether people with intersex conditions complicate the issue. My advice? Acknowledge they exist, but in the next breath make sure to dismiss them as a negligible minority.)

There are animals (mostly fish) that change their sex. The difficulty with trans folk is there is observed sex, and then other things going on that make them who they are.... which means sex is not that clear cut.

Also chromosomes. Yes they cant change, but there are more than just XX and XY combinations, and other stuff in there as well.

Trouble with science - it ain't black and white. Which is kinda cool really.

That it actually can change- because apparently also eye colour can change throughout life.

Well obviously, we potentially could change sex, if anyone could figure out how to do it. Some animals do it.

We obviously don't naturally, and no-one has figured out a way to make us do it. Whether a human is male or female is determined at conception, and does not change. We're not clownfish.

If we did have a way to do it, you can bet there would be a huge split between the people who actually had changed sex and those who were merely identifying.

The only reason there can be so much nonsense about how you define "trans" is because no-one is actually changing sex. Everyone is pretending, and all trans people are the same sex as they've always been.

(Do they think there are trans clownfish who are male but only identify as having changed sex, when they actually haven't? And you can't tell the difference between those and the fish who actually have?)

There are some creatures that actually do change sex naturally. They move from egg production to speed production, from one reproductive role to another. We can’t do that. The best we can do is surgeries and exogenous hormones to mimic becoming the opposite sex. But these do not actually change ones sex.

I'm in a Facebook group of people who love nature and it's got a specific scientific slant / interest.
Scrolling through posts from a couple of years ago I noticed someone had posted something about how some lionesses grew manes in the absence of a male, and someone followed this by saying their hamster had been female but had spontaneously grown testicles and fathered some baby hamsters! As in produced sperm and mated with the other female.

Noone in the group questioned this.

A group of self proclaimed scientific people.

If the posts weren't years old I'd have challenged them, but I felt bigoted for thinking about trying after the event.

Erm... Babies? Anyone ever heard of any male animal suddenly growing ovaries and uterus?

No amount of cosmetic surgery or wrong sex hormones will change a single chromosome anywhere in a man’s body from Y to X.
A man who lost his genitals in an accident would not become a woman.
These may be inconvenient truths for the TRAs, but they are nonetheless truths.

I would go with the babies line as well. Ask them if they know what type of contraception they use, and if they would ever need to do a pregnancy test.

The difficulty with trans folk is there is observed sex, and then other things going on that make them who they are....

...which are nothing to do with their sex.

(That's the gender critical position - your sex is real, but it doesn't define who you are.)

In a shipwreck, a young transman and a transwoman are stranded on a desert island with just the clothes they stand up in.

A year later, one of them is pregnant.

Which one would it be and why?

Also chromosomes. Yes they cant change, but there are more than just XX and XY combinations, and other stuff in there as well.
If we looked at the chromosomes of a trans person do you think they would be of a non-standard nature? Is that what you mean? We could test the dna of all children then and save a lot of bother.
I very much doubt that trans people would turn out to have a chromosomal make up different from their sex

I would like evidence of one human being throughout the whole of history, just one, who has actually changed sex.

@NecessaryScene

The difficulty with trans folk is there is observed sex, and then other things going on that make them who they are....

...which are nothing to do with their sex.

(That's the gender critical position - your sex is real, but it doesn't define who you are.)

I suspect Mishi doesn't realise they've just stated the GC position! .

But as they're still using Intersex (which isn't a term that is used this century) as a gotcha I'm guessing they're not that good at nuanced arguments.

I agree with them that science is cool though

‘There are animals (mostly fish) that change their sex. The difficulty with trans folk is there is observed sex, and then other things going on that make them who they are.... which means sex is not that clear cut.’

Surely the only sex we know about is observed sex? Unless we are talking about supernatural sex.

People with DID still have an immutable sex, so not sure why intersex is being mentioned.

Well over 99% of humans are either male or female. We are a binary species. The end.

If you're determined to argue with stupid you could ask them if their mum or dad gave birth to them.

Ask the men if they've ever taken a pregnancy test.

Ask for the name of the first person born male who gave birth after changing sex and conceiving naturally.
Or save your energy, these people aren't worth your time and I'd assume they had their permanent residence under a bridge.

I’m not a scientist but eye colour is a spectrum. Hair colour and texture is a spectrum which is how it can change and evolve over time. Sex is binary. It’s how we reproduce. There are two distinct gametes which define human sex.
Do they have evidence of any human being changing sex and producing the two separate and distinct gametes?

Trouble with science - it ain't black and white. Which is kinda cool really.

This sounds like you paraphrased that rather ridiculous Facebook post from a "science teacher" that went viral a few years ago. The one that was first to mention clownfish I think. Legend.

I very much doubt that trans people would turn out to have a chromosomal make up different from their sex

There would be a few, but I believe there have been studies that show that DSDs/intersex conditions are no more prevalent in the trans population than the general population.

The trans population do claim to have intersex conditions a lot though - I believe that's also been studied. (J Yaniv being an example)

(Sorry, no references, and those studies presumably were looking at past cohorts of transsexuals, rather than the current transgender crowd.)

There are animals (mostly fish) that change their sex.

Can you breathe underwater for hours?

@MishyJDI

lols. Cause it is not clear cut. That's what trans and scientific people find funny:

Science is messy and complicated, so it’s best to steer clear of it and stick to a few slogans, such as “Sex is real.” (This one has the advantage of implying that trans people deny that sex is real, which makes them seem unreasonable.) Don’t, whatever you do, talk to actual biologists or psychologists currently working on the subjects of sex or gender. They are obviously interested in maintaining the trans-friendly status quo, and their testimony can be ignored. (Side note: you may have wondered whether people with intersex conditions complicate the issue. My advice? Acknowledge they exist, but in the next breath make sure to dismiss them as a negligible minority.)

There are animals (mostly fish) that change their sex. The difficulty with trans folk is there is observed sex, and then other things going on that make them who they are.... which means sex is not that clear cut.

Also chromosomes. Yes they cant change, but there are more than just XX and XY combinations, and other stuff in there as well.

Trouble with science - it ain't black and white. Which is kinda cool really.

Cool. Can sperm producers ever become egg producers? No. You can blather on reposting your same idiotic post all you want. Yeah science isn't always black and white but sometimes it is. This is one such instance. Also the earth is round and when you die you stay dead. Hope that helps.

@MapGirlExtraordinaire

I'm in a Facebook group of people who love nature and it's got a specific scientific slant / interest. Scrolling through posts from a couple of years ago I noticed someone had posted something about how some lionesses grew manes in the absence of a male, and someone followed this by saying their hamster had been female but had spontaneously grown testicles and fathered some baby hamsters! As in produced sperm and mated with the other female.

Noone in the group questioned this.

A group of self proclaimed scientific people.

If the posts weren't years old I'd have challenged them, but I felt bigoted for thinking about trying after the event.

Why does this remind me of Nursey from Blackadder II, describing her reaction when Elizabeth was born. "It's a boy without a winkle! A miracle!"

The nearest I can think of to changing sex is women who have given birth to boys have some XY chimera cells in their body.

actual biologists

Like Colin Wright, Emma Hilton?

There is a difference, however, between the statements that there are only two sexes (true) and that everyone can be neatly categorized as either male or female (false). The existence of only two sexes does not mean sex is never ambiguous. But intersex individuals are extremely rare, and they are neither a third sex nor proof that sex is a “spectrum” or a “social construct.” Not everyone needs to be discretely assignable to one or the other sex in order for biological sex to be functionally binary. To assume otherwiseto confuse secondary sexual traits with biological sex itselfis a category error.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dangerous-denial-of-sex-11581638089