I've just been called "unscientific" for saying that you cannot change sex

[CloudyMoment]

It's just a rant really, but also fishing for possible counter-arguments.

I thought that nobody really properly argues against the fact that sex is something you are born with, and that his cannot be changed.

Apparently those people think sex is not immutable. That it actually can change- because apparently also eye colour can change throughout life. I tried arguing against, that we are still born with a coded expression hair or eye colour, and that this does not change. I feel that this is very much a philosophical discussion to be had.. but meanwhile. How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

22:10midgedude

I am a scientist but not biologist

I have seen evidence that sex is binary snd immutable

I have seen no evidence to the contrary

I have seen evidence that DSD exist, snd also evidence of other genetic disorders such as downs

I have seen no evidence that this knowledge helps us understand trans people

👋

Probably because DSD has absolutely nothing to do with trans people.

If sex isn't real and no one knows what sex they are until you decide, then no one can be trans because what are you transing from and how can you define being trans.

The alternative is that anyone can identify as trans regardless of whether their gender identity stays the same or changes or that anyone can be 'cis' if they decide thats the case.

If we are talking about science, then we need a biological marker that identifies us as trans otherwise and a pattern of biology which is consistent and shared by a group.

I'd like to know what this is, because we haven't found a common gene, chromosome, biological similarity or anything else yet between women and trans-women or men or trans-men.

If sex isn't real then no one needs legal protection for gender reassignment as it wouldn't be necessary. If sex isn't real then there is the possibility that men or transwomen would produce eggs if they wanted to and carry a baby for 9 months. Even if we somehow manage the technology to do this, there will be a certain sex that needs to do this and one that does not.

The very existence of trans relies on sex being real for it to be meaningful as an identity. Which is pretty ironic.

@RedToothBrush

If sex isn't real and no one knows what sex they are until you decide, then no one can be trans because what are you transing from and how can you define being trans.

The alternative is that anyone can identify as trans regardless of whether their gender identity stays the same or changes or that anyone can be 'cis' if they decide thats the case.

If we are talking about science, then we need a biological marker that identifies us as trans otherwise and a pattern of biology which is consistent and shared by a group.

I'd like to know what this is, because we haven't found a common gene, chromosome, biological similarity or anything else yet between women and trans-women or men or trans-men.

If sex isn't real then no one needs legal protection for gender reassignment as it wouldn't be necessary. If sex isn't real then there is the possibility that men or transwomen would produce eggs if they wanted to and carry a baby for 9 months. Even if we somehow manage the technology to do this, there will be a certain sex that needs to do this and one that does not.

The very existence of trans relies on sex being real for it to be meaningful as an identity. Which is pretty ironic.

My entire head just exploded 🤯

I guess our minds are just too highly trained.

🎵 Why are we waiting? 🎶

Why are we waiting?

I imagine @mishyJDI is just checking her references. Sex is apparently very complicated so she's got to dumb it down for us mere BScs. I'm anticipating a car analogy.

@TriteMale

What I find odd is that it seems to be the sectors you'd usually associate with higher levels of education which seem to be the most susceptible to this nonsense - academia, white collar businesses, etc. None of the truck drivers I work with would take this crap seriously.

I think its much more about conformity than education.

Working class people are, on average, less agreeable and conformist- nobody gives a shit if truck drivers hold the 'right' beliefs. The sectors with the highest R number are those in which it's important to conform to be successful.

Ask them to describe the clitoris.

@EndoplasmicReticulum

Nemo appears by post 4. Is that a record?

They’d have no problems finding fucking Nemo these days, would they?

Placemarking so I can come back to this for Mishy to continue my biology education

Or not?

@justawoman76

Degree in animal biology and qualified RVN. Can I play?

I don't know...does this qualify you to determine whether humans are clownfish?

@donquixotedelamancha

Why are we waiting?

I imagine @mishyJDI is just checking her references. Sex is apparently very complicated so she's got to dumb it down for us mere BScs. I'm anticipating a car analogy.

I have a PhD, so I might need it dumbed down even more

You can't change chromosomal sex but you can change phenotypic sex. The problem is using the term "sex" as a catch all.

Anyone mentioned Project Nettie yet?

projectnettie.wordpress.com/

Sexual reproduction, the generation of offspring by fusion of genetic material from two different individuals, evolved over 1 billion years ago. It is the reproductive strategy of all higher animals and plants, including the mammalian class to which humans belong. Humans can be differentiated into two categories by their reproductive roles. Females make eggs and gestate live young. Males generate sperm to fertilise the female egg. In accordance with their respective roles, females and males have different reproductive anatomies (“biological sex”). No other reproductive mechanism exists in humans. In contradiction of evolutionary history and millennia of human observations, highly-esteemed scientific periodicals are running articles undermining the observable reality of biological sex.

“Biologists now think there is a larger spectrum than just binary female and male.” Scientific American, Oct 22 2018
“The research and medical community now sees sex as more complex than male and female.” Nature, Oct 30 2018

In response to these claims, Project Nettie was born. What is Project Nettie? Project Nettie is an online and regularly updated record of scientists, medics and those in related disciplines who, by signing their support for the Project Nettie statement (below), assert the material reality of biological sex and reject attempts to reframe it as a malleable social construct.

you can change phenotypic sex

Can you? You can change secondary sexual characteristics and remove the primary functioning associated with your own sex. Do you have any evidence you can change phenotypic sex to the opposite sex?

(Seecondary characteristics can of course be variable in people who, rightly, in no way consider themselves to have 'changed sex' eg men taking spironolactone developing breasts or some women with PCOS developing facial hair.)

@donquixotedelamancha

Why are we waiting?

I imagine @mishyJDI is just checking her references. Sex is apparently very complicated so she's got to dumb it down for us mere BScs. I'm anticipating a car analogy.

Ah! I may need even more then, as I too have a bloody PhD!

You can't change chromosomal sex but you can change phenotypic sex. The problem is using the term "sex" as a catch all.

Sure you can change the way you look " phenotypic" by removing body parts and adding artificial body parts , just as some people have tattooed their face and split their tongues to look like reptiles. However, this does not change your sex class or in the latter case your species

@GoldenSun1

You can't change chromosomal sex but you can change phenotypic sex. The problem is using the term "sex" as a catch all.

Ah! Secondary sex characteristics yes, but not the phenotype!

AKA - you can change the appearance of something but not its essential traits.

But we could nit pick that for ages.

Which one is actually a cat?

@GoldenSun1

You can't change chromosomal sex but you can change phenotypic sex. The problem is using the term "sex" as a catch all.

Ohhhhhh So this is a tiger?

images.app.goo.gl/oskZNNC9EJuUutj46

@SpikeDearheart

Which one is actually a cat?

Sorry. I didn’t see yours before I posted.

Jinx

I would ask them how you can change sex, not sexual characteristics, but sex, as determined in your dna.

Great minds, AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

My entire head just exploded

Just reversing the logic ridiculous word salad of queer theory.