I've just been called "unscientific" for saying that you cannot change sex

[CloudyMoment]

It's just a rant really, but also fishing for possible counter-arguments.

I thought that nobody really properly argues against the fact that sex is something you are born with, and that his cannot be changed.

Apparently those people think sex is not immutable. That it actually can change- because apparently also eye colour can change throughout life. I tried arguing against, that we are still born with a coded expression hair or eye colour, and that this does not change. I feel that this is very much a philosophical discussion to be had.. but meanwhile. How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

Yes. Please do some research into babies that are born intersex. It is a thing however much this section of this website tries to dismiss it

I think you are confused about the term ‘intersex’.

@MishyJDI

lols. Cause it is not clear cut. That's what trans and scientific people find funny:

Science is messy and complicated, so it’s best to steer clear of it and stick to a few slogans, such as “Sex is real.” (This one has the advantage of implying that trans people deny that sex is real, which makes them seem unreasonable.) Don’t, whatever you do, talk to actual biologists or psychologists currently working on the subjects of sex or gender. They are obviously interested in maintaining the trans-friendly status quo, and their testimony can be ignored. (Side note: you may have wondered whether people with intersex conditions complicate the issue. My advice? Acknowledge they exist, but in the next breath make sure to dismiss them as a negligible minority.)

There are animals (mostly fish) that change their sex. The difficulty with trans folk is there is observed sex, and then other things going on that make them who they are.... which means sex is not that clear cut.

Also chromosomes. Yes they cant change, but there are more than just XX and XY combinations, and other stuff in there as well.

Trouble with science - it ain't black and white. Which is kinda cool really.

Sex is binary and immutable. People born with a DSD are still either male or female. There is no science that proves otherwise.

Yes. Please do some research into babies that are born intersex. It is a thing however much this section of this website tries to dismiss it.

We don't dismiss the VSDs on this board, whatever gave you that idea?
I don't believe there's any documented cases of a male mammal developing functioning ovaries. If you have seen evidence of that please do share a reference. There may of course be people with VSDs whose sex was genuinely misidentified at birth due to ambiguous external genitalia and no chromosome test at that stage who may develop gonads - but these people did not 'change sex'. A person with internal testes may be raised as a girl but in truth was always male.
VSDs are complicated but they don't break the sex binary.

@Clymene

Well over 99% of humans are either male or female. We are a binary species. The end.

100% are either male or female.

And you want us to educate ourselves‽‽‽‽‽

As TedImgoingmad said above - this is Blackadder territory.

Nursie: Out you popped and everyone’s shouting: “It’s a boy, it’s a boy!” And somebody said: “But it hasn’t got a winkle!” And I said: “God be praised, it’s a miracle. A boy without a winkle!” And then Sir Thomas More pointed out that a boy without a winkle is a girl. Everyone was really disappointed.

Melchett: Yes, he was a very perceptive man, Sir Thomas More.

There was a riveting tweet by ClaireCAIS the other day in a conversation with a nice youngster who said there were 25 people with VSDs in a youth group she went to. Claire said that as there were fewer than 25 people in the UK who were openly living with a VSD, this was unlikely.

Numbers are also science...

@merrymouse

There are animals (mostly fish) that change their sex.

So that they can produce more fish.

Humans do not have that capability.

The point of sex is reproduction. If sexual reproduction in humans were very complicated humans would have died out long ago.

I'm sorry but I don't think you're allowed to say that. To some people, belief in a man who could and did produce more fish is a protected belief. Amen.

Being infertile doesn't change the category you belong to.

Well, you're either an infertile male or an infertile female. It will either be a male system or female system that's not working.

Which sex you are would determine the nature of the treatment...

When you repair a broken clock, you get a clock. When you repair a broken motorcycle, you get a motorcycle.

A broken clock is not a motorcycle, broken or otherwise.

To some people, belief in a man who could and did produce more fish is a protected belief.
Amen.

Yeah. I think he is supposed to have used a different method.

😁

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking.

You can't argue with science.

@PermanentTemporary

There was a riveting tweet by ClaireCAIS the other day in a conversation with a nice youngster who said there were 25 people with VSDs in a youth group she went to. Claire said that as there were fewer than 25 people in the UK who were openly living with a VSD, this was unlikely.

Numbers are also science...

I missed that. Claire is usually very clear and succinct. Not easy to misunderstand, even when she explains the heavy science!

I can only imagine the weighty silence after that response...

Folk. It's odd and I can't pinpoint why.

It's twee.

Claire said that as there were fewer than 25 people in the UK who were openly living with a VSD, this was unlikely.

That sounds far too low to me. Citation? Maybe one specific VSD?

But the "25 people in my youth group with a VSD" is utter nonsense in the other direction. That's just illustrating how often trans people claim to have intersex conditions to justify their identity.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking

I also have a relative with a DSD. One that TRAs are constantly using to "prove" that sex is a spectrum and therefore this disorder makes him less male and more female than men without this disorder. I find it really offensive tbh.

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female.

They have developed more along the pathway to producing female gametes (ova) than male ones (sperm). It's still a medical disorder of sex development. It doesn't nullify the sex binary, because there are only two biological sex roles.

@theresstardustinmyhead

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking.

You can't argue with science.

Nobody is dismissing anyone with D/VSDs. There are two(?) occasional posters here whose usernames make it clear they have personal experience and are very, very clear and detailed with their information. I had thought I had a good grasp of the basics until reading a few posts by ClaireCAIS.

And we have all read the NHS page I would imagine. It is often suggested and never contains the information we are led to believe it does. All Mishy actually said was that sex is binary but has a few rare variations along the way - something most GC women posting here understand, believe and have discussed or read about here before!

Only one side of this debate needs to educate itself, and it isn’t us.

Why is it that people with differences of sexual development are so often brought up by people trying to claim a scientific basis for gender ideology?

I've had transwomen try to claim that I'm 'intersex' because I have PCOS. It's not a DSD, for anyone who is wondering. There's a name for people with ovaries and its women.

This attempt to muddle the water does no favours for the brave people like ClaireCAIS who are living with a DSD.

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

You are talking about people who are chromosomally male, but externally phenotypically female, not people who can change sex.

I saw on Octonauts this jellyfish that became young again if it was scared, effectively making it immortal. I’ve seen loads of horror films and look young for my age, am I going to live forever, Mishy?
That’s also cool.

You are talking about people who are chromosomally male, but externally phenotypically female, not people who can change sex.

I know someone with this condition. It doesn't mean it's possible to change sex.

DSDs make up 0.018% of all live births.

And yet again they have been dragged into this ridiculous argument.
There is NO third sex.

Karotyping can now prove which sex group one belongs to.
And the incidence of DSDs in the trans population has been shown to be no higher than the general population.

How many more times is this ridiculous argument going to be proffered as some kind of 'proof'?

Sorry soontobe60 you are of course quite right. What I meant is that well over 99% are unequivocally, beyond doubt, male or female.

@theresstardustinmyhead

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking.

You can't argue with science.

I don't think anyone is dismissing their reality - as you say, it's a medical condition and affects females.

The TRA lot try to use this to argue that males who wish to become women, can. When it proves nothing more than sometimes human development goes wrong and makes life difficult for individuals.

We have some beautiful irises in our garden. They’re in a really bad spot, so you can hardly see them. The other night DH and I went over to look at them. There were LOADS of bees everywhere. Merrily buzzing around the irises, diving into the flowers and quite humorously reversing out.

That was PLANT SEX right there. There are male and female parts of plants. There’s no ‘identifying’ going on, no special ‘feels’.

Ever asked a dog breeder what their dogs and bitches identify as?