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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I've just been called "unscientific" for saying that you cannot change sex

232 replies

CloudyMoment · 10/06/2021 17:50

It's just a rant really, but also fishing for possible counter-arguments.

I thought that nobody really properly argues against the fact that sex is something you are born with, and that his cannot be changed.

Apparently those people think sex is not immutable. That it actually can change- because apparently also eye colour can change throughout life. I tried arguing against, that we are still born with a coded expression hair or eye colour, and that this does not change. I feel that this is very much a philosophical discussion to be had.. but meanwhile. How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/06/2021 19:38

Regarding intersex...

extract

The persistent online othering of intersex people

There is now a narrative that is continually repeated on social media, that states intersex people are neither male or female or a third, fourth or even fifth sex. This is frequently repeated by people with no experience of intersex issues and these messages often include inaccurate information about our lives and bodies and frequently include discussions of our genitals, even referring to us as having “both sets of genitals”. When trying to correct these misrepresentations, I am frequently dismissed, blocked or called transphobic. It frequently feels that I have become nothing more than an interesting anecdote someone has learned about in a gender studies lecture – and they have not considered that people like me really exist & should be offered the same respect as everyone else. We should not have our lives weaponised and used as part of a thesis, especially by people who have no interest in listening to our voices and will immediately block us on social media, if we do not agree with their analysis of our bodies.

I agree that we have complex biological variations that do not sit neatly into binary boxes – and this can be incredibly distressing and isolating for newly diagnosed children and families. People talk about intersex people being as common as red hair, but in reality, it is only a tiny number of children and families who are facing these really complex issues. In the UK, only around 150 children are diagnosed with a difference in their sex development each year, which means there is unlikely to be another parent in your NCT group experiencing the same issues – and there is unlikely to be another child in your school or sometimes even in your town. Parents frequently feel terrified and alone – and the othering language that is persistently used to describe their children, is likely to only increase their feelings of isolation. If children with different sex development are to grow up without stigma, secrecy and shame, we need to ensure that their parents are well supported and treated with compassion and sensitivity. By supporting parents, we are giving them the best chance to be positive advocates for their children.

There are now numerous guides for schools that talk about the best practice for supporting transgender young people. These all talk about the trauma of being misgendered or the pain that can be caused by not respecting pronouns. We are told that not affirming someone’s gender is an act of violence and can lead to young people attempting suicide. The latest advice from Stonewall also talks about “listening to the child or young person and following their lead and preferences”. The Trans Inclusion Toolkit from Allsorts states “Follow the lead of the child, young person and if appropriate their family”.

It is hard to understand why people promoting these guides on how to best support trans young people, do not share the same empathy for children & young people with different sex development. One recent comment stated that those of us arguing that it is wrong to force a third sex narrative onto all intersex people, have a “fear of being othered away from our female safety nets”. This seemed to dismiss any of the trauma & real loss that many intersex women have experienced. Born and raised as girls and then finding out as young teens that they could not have children & could have difficulty having sex due to lack of vaginal depth – as well as finding out about your chromosomes and internal testes. You do feel ripped away from everything you thought was true about yourself. It takes time to process this and grieve for these very real losses, before being able to put yourself back together again in a way that you can feel positive about living with a different body. This can take time and patience and it is essential that anyone working with children and families facing these issues, is able to be compassionate and sensitive to their needs. The current trend to other intersex people as a third sex or neither male or female, offers newly diagnosed children & families, none of the same empathy and understanding that is considered vitally important when supporting young people with gender dysphoria. Information sent to schools, often includes the Genderbread Person or Gender Unicorn, which has intersex listed as a third sex, alongside ‘other’. The Allsorts Toolkit references intersex, although the information they provide is misleading and even inaccurately implies that many intersex people transition as they have been misdiagnosed in infancy.

Continues: differently-normal.com/

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 10/06/2021 19:39

@Deliriumoftheendless

I saw on Octonauts this jellyfish that became young again if it was scared, effectively making it immortal. I’ve seen loads of horror films and look young for my age, am I going to live forever, Mishy? That’s also cool.
“Lols”
Waitwhat23 · 10/06/2021 19:41

@heathspeedwell I also have PCOS and find it astounding that some people believe having an endocrine disorder which specifically affects females makes us 'intersex'. The idiocy is jaw dropping.

AnyOldPrion · 10/06/2021 19:44

@theresstardustinmyhead

Ok, more specifically look up androgen insensitivity syndrome. Insensitivity to androgens can make a person with XY chromosomes female. See more here www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/.

I'm not a TRA (had to google what that was!) but I do have a relative with this condition. And as Misty pointed out, the ease at which their reality is dismissed in these 'debates' is heartbreaking.

You can't argue with science.

They appear female, externally.

They have testicles internally.

They absolutely should have the right to be whichever legal sex they feel matches them best, but in the scientific sense, they are male because they have testes.

LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour · 10/06/2021 19:52

@NoHunGosh

Erm... Babies? Anyone ever heard of any male animal suddenly growing ovaries and uterus?
It's possible to have XY chromosomes and a uterus.
heathspeedwell · 10/06/2021 19:54

There have been quite a few cases of men with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome who had surgery on their undescended testicles and then fathered children.

Erik Schinegger is possibly one of the most famous examples. Claiming that insensitivity to androgens makes someone female is a massive oversimplification.

Generally I think unless you have a DSD or you're a medical professional it is inappropriate to bring up these incredibly rare medical conditions. They are nothing to do with gender.

Iamhangingin · 10/06/2021 19:55

My son was born with a birth defect which means he has a-typical genitalia. Which is a condition obviously that only effects boys. It doesn't mean sex is a spectrum or complicated, it's just sometimes during pregnancy things go wrong (in my case around the 12 week mark and sex is decided at the point the egg is fertilised). A chromosomal abnormality is just that, an abnormality not a 3rd sex.

Ann Boyle was born with an extra finger. I don't think anyone has argued this is proof that human hands are a spectrum with any number of finger options. It seems unbelievably cruel to be using terms like intersex and using these conditions to argue ideological points.

My son is now going through puberty and I'm horrified he might be exposed to this and the impact on his body image. I really feel for other parents who's children have complex medical issues, I can't imagine how upsetting the appropriation of DSD conditions (and the adding of I to LGBT) is for their families.

titchy · 10/06/2021 19:55

It's possible to have XY chromosomes and a uterus

Yes and such people are female. The Y doesn't work usually because it's on the wrong part of the chromosome.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 10/06/2021 20:02

@Iamhangingin

My son was born with a birth defect which means he has a-typical genitalia. Which is a condition obviously that only effects boys. It doesn't mean sex is a spectrum or complicated, it's just sometimes during pregnancy things go wrong (in my case around the 12 week mark and sex is decided at the point the egg is fertilised). A chromosomal abnormality is just that, an abnormality not a 3rd sex.

Ann Boyle was born with an extra finger. I don't think anyone has argued this is proof that human hands are a spectrum with any number of finger options. It seems unbelievably cruel to be using terms like intersex and using these conditions to argue ideological points.

My son is now going through puberty and I'm horrified he might be exposed to this and the impact on his body image. I really feel for other parents who's children have complex medical issues, I can't imagine how upsetting the appropriation of DSD conditions (and the adding of I to LGBT) is for their families.

Excellent point. Thank you for sharing your experience and point of view. It’s a much needed aspect to this discussion.
NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 20:05

Ann Boyle was born with an extra finger. I don't think anyone has argued this is proof that human hands are a spectrum with any number of finger options.

Or that she wasn't human, or that humans can grow extra fingers after birth.

donquixotedelamancha · 10/06/2021 20:09

How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

Open any Biology textbook? Seriously though, why bother. It's as daft as those who think 'science' shows vaccines are bad or Psychics can 'read energy'. They don't have the basic understanding for you to argue coherently with.

Don’t, whatever you do, talk to actual biologists or psychologists currently working on the subjects of sex or gender. They are obviously interested in maintaining the trans-friendly status quo, and their testimony can be ignored.

@MishyJDI Actual biochemist here, will I do? I'll be happy to discuss the science. Don't worry about showing off your expertise, I'll let you know if I get lost.

CandyLeBonBon · 10/06/2021 20:15

My dp was born without a hand. It's a rare congenital complication. He's still a human though. Not some otherwise unknown species with just one hand.

Sometimes our 'code' goes wrong. There are still only two sexes. And one Homo sapiens.

Igneococcus · 10/06/2021 20:17

Another actual biologist here, is there space on your bench? donquixotedelamancha

Naunet · 10/06/2021 20:19

@MapGirlExtraordinaire

I'm in a Facebook group of people who love nature and it's got a specific scientific slant / interest. Scrolling through posts from a couple of years ago I noticed someone had posted something about how some lionesses grew manes in the absence of a male, and someone followed this by saying their hamster had been female but had spontaneously grown testicles and fathered some baby hamsters! As in produced sperm and mated with the other female.

Noone in the group questioned this.

A group of self proclaimed scientific people.

If the posts weren't years old I'd have challenged them, but I felt bigoted for thinking about trying after the event.

I’m not sure if you were questioning the lioness part of that, or not, but if you were, that bit is true, well partly. There is a group of lionesses that grew manes, and behaved more like males. However, they don’t know the reason for this (so not because there’s no males around), and think it could be an evolutionary thing, or it could just be a hormone imbalance. It’s fascinating though, I think there’s a few videos about it on YouTube.
WarriorN · 10/06/2021 20:19

Non invasive prenatal tests can test the dna in the mother's blood and determine the sex and also any specific trisomies that cause severe incompatible with life issues, and are often types of intersex. Consequently, you have to agree to know the sex of the child to test for those specific conditions.

This test can be done as early as 11 weeks gestation. So the foetus has been alive for barely 7/8 weeks.

It's sex then is the sex it will be when born. If it wasn't, you'd know there's an issue with the sry gene that hasn't been able to communicate the dna sex to the bodie's cells.

I don't fully understand the question but it's an example of sex in dna from conception.

WarriorN · 10/06/2021 20:20

We had a quartet of female hens; one decided to be boss and attempted to crow but didn't change sex (it's very different in birds though.)

TheElementsSong · 10/06/2021 20:35

Did somebody call for an actual molecular biologist?

Harrydresdenssidekick · 10/06/2021 20:46

Any room for another biochemist?

Thelnebriati · 10/06/2021 20:47

There are animals (mostly fish) that change their sex.

Sex-changing fish are usually sequential hermaphrodites.

334bu · 10/06/2021 20:50

Hope the scientists can stop laughing long enough to explain human biology to these poor deluded people.

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 20:52

Could be worse. They could be saying people can change sex due to quantum effects.

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 20:53

Do you know which slit that photon went through? No? Right, then how can you say whether someone is male or female? Huh?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/06/2021 21:00

@titchy

It's possible to have XY chromosomes and a uterus

Yes and such people are female. The Y doesn't work usually because it's on the wrong part of the chromosome.

You really should stop knowing such stuff.

Just as people who make such statements as the one you were responding to should stop, as they are misinformed and are appropriating a rare condition to shore up a weak point. It's really unpleasant.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/06/2021 21:04

Mere physiologist here, worse a multidisciplinarian in exercise science. I'll take a seat if there's room.

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