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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am

856 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/06/2021 18:13

Wishing her the very best of luck. twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402310977115279362?s=20

I'll be absolutely gutted if the original decision isn't overturned, but at least her case has let a lot of sunlight in.

OP posts:
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BlueBrush · 11/06/2021 11:39

@nauticant

If one day in is any guide, the meaning of the decision yesterday is being obscured in a fog of "but transwomen are so oppressed we must do nothing that will hurt their feelings". It's clear for example that this is the narrative preferred by the BBC.

It looks like Maya Forstater's huge achievement will need to be supplemented by a number of cases in court where women will have to sue employers and others because they've been discriminated against for having the PC of gender critical beliefs.

This isn't meant to sound negative, more that yesterday provided us with the tools but change will come from the use of those tools.

Excellent point.
Datun · 11/06/2021 11:46

I wonder if Baroness Faulkner fully understands the degree to which women have been intimidated and bullied over this issue.

The phone calls to their bosses, the masked men blocking doorways, the no platforming, the banging on windows of meetings while screaming burn it down, bomb threats, having to walk around your workplace with security, being arrested for using the wrong word. The House of Commons switchboard said they have never received so many phone calls, trying to stop a meeting there, Venice Allan's I believe.

It's not about bloody misgendering someone in the office.

Datun · 11/06/2021 11:48

And yes, I'm quite certain that there will be a flurry of court cases about this issue. It's so ingrained in people that you can tell women to shut the fuck up.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/06/2021 11:51

I wonder if Baroness Faulkner fully understands the degree to which women have been intimidated and bullied over this issue.

As Jane Clare Jones and others have pointed out, when you tell people about it it sounds so unhinged as to be unbelievable - so, no, most people don't understand it. Even if they have been told about it they can't actually grasp that it could possibly have happened in a democratic society.

How often are there remarks along the lines of, "Why weren't women speaking up about this if it's so terrible" - without any awareness of the number of women who've been deplatformed from MSM.

BlueBrush · 11/06/2021 11:53

*Exactly. It really highlights how much immaturity and self-absorption drives so many TRAs - how little life experience they have - when they believe everything that even mildly contradicts their view of the world isliteral violence.

Ordinary people negotiate these tricky 'difference of belief' issues every single day of their lives with no drama. It's usually just called 'good manners'.*

Yes, we really need to find a way of shifting this misrepresentative framing of the case as being about the right (of GC people) to bully and harass trans people, when it's more about defence against GC people being bullied and harassed.

I hope those trans people who are quietly going about their business, respecting the distinction between sex and gender, get this. I hope they're not being persuaded by some of this misrepresentation that they are under threat.

Datun · 11/06/2021 11:54

How often are there remarks along the lines of, "Why weren't women speaking up about this if it's so terrible" - without any awareness of the number of women who've been deplatformed from MSM.

Exactly. The numerous women who have been kicked off is scandalous.

And presumably that is now a thing of the past.

shenanigans5 · 11/06/2021 11:54

I hadn’t realised Maya lives just down the road from me. I commented on a local mums Facebook page for the first time disagreeing with someone who said chromosomes are ‘all mixed up and not about xx or xy’.

I disagreed in the standard fashion- it’s xx or xy unless born intersex, which is rare and explained I have a science based degree and masters. Maya liked my comments and commented herself on the thread.

I know it’s pathetic to worry but I’ve never waded into the debate before- which I realise is a bit weak.

Has anyone felt negative effects of expressing views publicly? Any advice at all?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/06/2021 12:09

And presumably that is now a thing of the past.

T&Cs of private spaces and the right to refuse access - I should think it will carry on.

And people will carry on wondering why women didn't speak up about these issues. And preference falsification will continue to be a meaningful phenomenon. (Quoting the book summary below.)

www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies, Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences. Drawing on diverse intellectual traditions, including those rooted in economics, psychology, sociology, and political science, Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse. When the support of a policy, tradition, or regime is largely contrived, a minor event may activate a bandwagon that generates massive yet unanticipated change.

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance. The book demonstrates how human knowledge and social structures co-evolve in complex and imperfectly predictable ways, without any guarantee of social efficiency.

SunnyintheSun · 11/06/2021 12:11

Just when you think things are going well…. At the risk of a random post, MNHQ have just posted on Site Stuff to say Sex/Gender threads are going to be hived off from the rest of FWR. Anyone else smelling a rat?

MellieBellie · 11/06/2021 12:15

I agree - many woman have no idea what they're really supporting. I was in that position last year when I read JKR's essay. I wasn't sure what to think, so I did a bit of research and I was horrified. Despite that, I kept reading about gender ideology and watching videos because I thought I'd missed something important that would make it logical. I didn't even mention it to my partner for months because I was so unsure. I couldn't believe that prominent people who I admired and largely agreed with would unquestionably accept such an incoherent ideology.

Now, I feel comfortable that I understand gender ideology and that I am right to be concerned. I've speaking to family and friends, but I've learned that I need to do it in stages because it's too much for them to believe if they hear it all at once. I had to send articles and reports to my step-mum last week because she seriously thought I'd veered into tinfoil hat territory. She was shocked when she saw that every example I'd given her was true. I'm hoping she'll now pass the info on to her friends.

I've also noticed a difference when I'm talking to men. I bring it up and they immediately say something dismissive about the TRA movement. They appear to be completely unconflicted about their views, and they have absolutely no fear of saying what they think. It's quite frustrating when I think of the fear that many women feel when talking about these matters.

WarriorN · 11/06/2021 12:31

@SunnyintheSun

Just when you think things are going well…. At the risk of a random post, MNHQ have just posted on Site Stuff to say Sex/Gender threads are going to be hived off from the rest of FWR. Anyone else smelling a rat?
Um what now?

I hope this isnt going to be a "Gender criticism" topic as there's no feminist who isn't critical of gender stereotypes and gender roles, and experiences difficulties in life as a direct result of her sex.

I've said a few times I don't subscribe to gender critical feminism as a new breed of feminism, as feminism is critical of gender and the impact of the male sex on the female sex in society by default.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/06/2021 12:33

I hope this isnt going to be a "Gender criticism" topic as there's no feminist who isn't critical of gender stereotypes and gender roles, and experiences difficulties in life as a direct result of her sex.

Interesting - it's probably worth seeing what MNHQ propose.

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?msgid=108110967

WarriorN · 11/06/2021 12:43

They proposed a sex gender topic within feminism.

Which is IMO pointless.

lanadelgrey · 11/06/2021 13:11

I see it as stopping that ‘bring your whole self to work’ stuff. Nothing to hide but no jumping on desks and shouting out other points of view or hanging out too much bunting

TheWayOfTheWorld · 11/06/2021 13:22

@shenanigans5

I hadn’t realised Maya lives just down the road from me. I commented on a local mums Facebook page for the first time disagreeing with someone who said chromosomes are ‘all mixed up and not about xx or xy’.

I disagreed in the standard fashion- it’s xx or xy unless born intersex, which is rare and explained I have a science based degree and masters. Maya liked my comments and commented herself on the thread.

I know it’s pathetic to worry but I’ve never waded into the debate before- which I realise is a bit weak.

Has anyone felt negative effects of expressing views publicly? Any advice at all?

I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised by the ratio of likes to dislikes 👀
shenanigans5 · 11/06/2021 13:47

TheWayOfTheWorld it’s more that it’s a public forum where my family and children live and I guess there’s a potential for them to be excluded because of something I said on the internet. I don’t know.

There was of course a fair few people in disagreement as well as those supportive of the GC stance.

Sorry to derail. I’m reading along the thread and learning all the time which is great.

nauticant · 11/06/2021 19:06

A minor celeb called Sam Dowler decides to go after Jonathan Ross for supporting Maya in order to get woke points:

twitter.com/search?q=(from%3Awossy)%20(to%3Asamdowler)&src=typed_query

You can't see Sam Dowler's tweets because he deleted them.

And then, to absolutely no one's surprise guess what:

twitter.com/CultSwat/status/1403388149397692423

334bu · 11/06/2021 19:13

Why are all the most ardent male trans allies closet transphobes?

CardinalLolzy · 11/06/2021 21:25

Jesus.

ScreamingMeMe · 12/06/2021 07:39

@334bu

Why are all the most ardent male trans allies closet transphobes?
Always. Yet TRAs seldom take them to task. Funny that.
FindTheTruth · 12/06/2021 07:44

Yet TRAs seldom take them to task.

perhaps bullies are scared of bullies. or perhaps their values are aligned

highame · 12/06/2021 08:20

That's really interesting Embarassing will come back for a proper read

FannyCann · 12/06/2021 10:16

we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender.

I shall be interested to see how it is possible to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex -and gender roles - impact on women's lives without having a view on sex and gender.

Clymene · 12/06/2021 10:35

Unfortunately for Sam Dowler, there were screen shots. Silly Sam

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am
PearPickingPorky · 12/06/2021 12:24

Who is Sam Dowler?

Brilliant response by Wossy.