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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am

856 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/06/2021 18:13

Wishing her the very best of luck. twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402310977115279362?s=20

I'll be absolutely gutted if the original decision isn't overturned, but at least her case has let a lot of sunlight in.

OP posts:
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FindTheTruth · 11/06/2021 06:46

@WarriorN

Apologies if this has been discussed but how does this affect the recent law changes (suggested?) in Scotland in practise?
INAL but Peter Daly says people 'need carefully to inspect their actions and policies to determine whether they have become institutionally discriminatory towards those who dissent from Gender Theory. The Scottish government has a range of policies, starting with the pending hate crime legislation, which need to reviewed'
WarriorN · 11/06/2021 06:50

Fab, thanks

Undersnatch · 11/06/2021 07:11

That’s wonderful news - who is Peter Daly, please?

YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire · 11/06/2021 07:15

Apologies if this has been discussed but how does this affect the recent law changes (suggested?) in Scotland in practise?

I'm not an expert on Scots law but my understanding is that the Equality Act won't be directly relevant, but if the belief is protected under the Equality Act it's very likely to be covered by Article 9 (Freedom of thought, conscience and religion) of the Human Rights Act.

It's a bit of a preliminary issue though, as you still have to consider whether freedom of expression under Article 10 can be restricted - in a similar way, the Tribunal will have to consider Maya's manifestation of her belief next. Still very helpful though!

YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire · 11/06/2021 07:24

who is Peter Daly, please?

Maya's solicitor.

tootyfruitypickle · 11/06/2021 07:32

Really irritating interview on today prog just now about the judgement

MNybvcx54 · 11/06/2021 07:34

It was Helen Belcher, extrapolating wildly from the actual judgment and speaking about toilets Biscuit

tootyfruitypickle · 11/06/2021 07:34

Sounds like the big 8.10 interview might be with Baroness Faulkner though

tootyfruitypickle · 11/06/2021 07:35

The interviewer didn't challenge her at all I was yelling at the radio. She didn't question whether this was about women's protected spaces just made it sound like these were bigoted views .

I hope she doesn't do the next segment

BiarritzCrackers · 11/06/2021 07:41

Also just heard R4 Today - I thought the technique used, and the way Helen's statements were left hanging actually made them seem quite absurd. If BBC interviews are too interrogative, then the whole "horrendously phobic media" arguments are used. So a gentle interview with, "but ... that may not happen" statements was quite effective.

FindTheTruth · 11/06/2021 07:51

@tootyfruitypickle

Sounds like the big 8.10 interview might be with Baroness Faulkner though
ooooooh!!!
boatyardblues · 11/06/2021 08:03

I thought Michal Hussein did a decent job of probing Belcher’s statements and accurately representing the tribunal’s findings, differentiating between belief/manifestation and expressing a different view/harrassment.

tootyfruitypickle · 11/06/2021 08:08

Thats an interesting take, good thinking .

nauticant · 11/06/2021 08:09

Helen Belcher's main message was that the win yesterday has changed nothing. The law before was that gender critical people can't harass trans people in the workplace and that remains the law. As indicated by Belcher, so long as GC people feel they have to be on guard and are aware that they can still be reported by colleagues and sanctioned by employers, then things can go on exactly as before.

Despite the positive spin, Belcher knows that something is now at risk of being lost, and that's the climate of fear in the workplace and that's what trans activists are desperately trying to shore up. That would be a real loss of power.

Belcher knows that the decision does free things up considerably for GC people and they can express their concerns where something is going on to cause those concerns whereas until yesterday they knew that doing that would put them at an unpredictable risk and open them up to abuse that they wouldn't be able to counter.

That the law hasn't changed is true but misses the point. What has changed is that employers and others were misunderstanding and/or misapplying the law and its now clear that if that continues GC people can challenge this.

Belcher did score one hit, which was talking about Maya then giving example of unpleasant behaviour in the workplace, and leaving in the air that that's what Maya had said and done. Unfortunately Mishal Husain didn't take the basic step of asking whether that's what Maya had actually said and done.

Baroness Falkner coming up now. She'll have more relevant things to say.

tootyfruitypickle · 11/06/2021 08:14

They must have had dozens of complaints after BC car crash interview so I guess it was important they proved that they gave her airtime to express her views. Hopefully followed shortly by a slam dunk interview in a better time slot by Baroness Falkner.

boatyardblues · 11/06/2021 08:15

Belcher did score one hit, which was talking about Maya then giving example of unpleasant behaviour in the workplace, and leaving in the air that that's what Maya had said and done. Unfortunately Mishal Husain didn't take the basic step of asking whether that's what Maya had actually said and done.

Yes, I noticed that too. Belcher worded the barb very carefully. I wished Hussein had picked up on it.

FindTheTruth · 11/06/2021 08:19

Baroness Faulkner hasn't been on yet? it just said 'after 8 O'clock'

RedDogsBeg · 11/06/2021 08:20

Fae, saying that some trans people were so scared they were thinking of leaving the country.

I'd like to know which countries represent the nirvana that offers fuller rights for Fae than the UK?

Argentina, Malta and Ireland are always touted as the Gold Standard for trans rights so they should be high on the list, surely? Mere coincidence that those three countries have a rather abysmal record on women's rights, odd that.

tootyfruitypickle · 11/06/2021 08:21

What Hussein missed was that it's not about harassing individuals, it's about challenging our employers if they try and move to gender neutral facilities , enforce pronouns etc. And then not being treated like these concerns are bigoted . I hope this point is made next.

nauticant · 11/06/2021 08:21

She's yet to appear FindTheTruth. I think they said 8.10 and that was a mistake.

Tibtom · 11/06/2021 08:35

@YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire

Apologies if this has been discussed but how does this affect the recent law changes (suggested?) in Scotland in practise?

I'm not an expert on Scots law but my understanding is that the Equality Act won't be directly relevant, but if the belief is protected under the Equality Act it's very likely to be covered by Article 9 (Freedom of thought, conscience and religion) of the Human Rights Act.

It's a bit of a preliminary issue though, as you still have to consider whether freedom of expression under Article 10 can be restricted - in a similar way, the Tribunal will have to consider Maya's manifestation of her belief next. Still very helpful though!

Under the Scotland Act 1998 the scottish Parliament does not have competence to legislate in breach of the Convention (on Human Rights) so there may be an arguement that the hate crime bill falls outwith the parliament's competence and therefore those elements at least effectively do not exist in law?
FindTheTruth · 11/06/2021 08:35

MSM

JK Rowling backs Maya Forstater after court victory over trans views
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-tweets-wins-appeal-0l5qjmxvq

Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules
www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater

Maya Forstater's victory injects some good sense into the toxic trans debate
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/10/maya-forstaters-victory-injects-good-sense-toxic-trans-debate/

334bu · 11/06/2021 08:37

On now.

FindTheTruth · 11/06/2021 08:38

Baroness Faulkner on Radio 4 now 08:38

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 11/06/2021 08:39

@Chrysanthemum5

Time for my favourite picture I think
😂😂😂😂 Actual LOL at that image.

Hopelessly late to comment, but FlowersFlowersFlowers and grateful thanks to Maya.