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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am

856 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/06/2021 18:13

Wishing her the very best of luck. twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402310977115279362?s=20

I'll be absolutely gutted if the original decision isn't overturned, but at least her case has let a lot of sunlight in.

OP posts:
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CriticalCondition · 10/06/2021 10:44

YES! Thank you, Maya. Thank you so much.

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 10/06/2021 10:44

It’s very carefully worded Grin

WinterTrees · 10/06/2021 10:45

Woman's Hour about to dip a cautious toe in the water... Jeez. (One comment just read out says 'it's about time you do your job and talk about this')

CriticalCondition · 10/06/2021 10:45

On W H now.

CroydianSlip · 10/06/2021 10:45

Oh my goodness, the relief. I'm shaking!

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/06/2021 10:46

This will impact Allison B’s case and the Girl Guiding case. Now they become cases were the person who has allegedly suffered a detriment has suffered that detriment because they hold a protected belief.

They could still lose on manifestation of the belief but not for having the belief in the first place.

nauticant · 10/06/2021 10:46

Ahh, Woman's Hour are now covering this as a lead in to the Lisa Keogh interview. They're giving it a proper review.

DisappearingGirl · 10/06/2021 10:46

Talking about Maya on link above right now

Diaryofamadwoman · 10/06/2021 10:46

Discussing on WH now

adviceseekingnamechanger · 10/06/2021 10:46

@WeeBisom

Just started reading the judgement, and it says that 'gender critical beliefs' CLEARLY do not fall into the same category as Nazism or totalitarianism.
Someone should tell a certain CEO of Stonewall...
lionheart · 10/06/2021 10:46
Flowers
DisappearingGirl · 10/06/2021 10:46

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm

Woman's Hour now

Fiffy50 · 10/06/2021 10:47

Thank you Maya. Your place in history is secure. Watched your statement in tears. So many days I’ve felt hopeless and defeated - today I realise that’s pathetic and I remember that this is a battle that has to be won. So, so happy. Be proud Maya you absolutely star!

Datun · 10/06/2021 10:47

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

Interesting in light of Stonewall’s statement yesterday that the judgment says the category of gender reassignment as a protect characteristic would only apply to a small number of trans people.
Yes, I noticed that. I wonder if that means they are going to somehow try and qualify the term gender reassignment.

From the very end of today's judgement:

"This judgment does not mean that trans persons do not have the protections against discrimination and harassment conferred by the EqA. They do. Although the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under s.7, EqA would be likely to apply only to a proportion of trans persons, there are other protected characteristics
that could potentially be relied upon in the face of such conduct: see footnote 1."

CardinalLolzy · 10/06/2021 10:48

Summary from the judgment (obviously there is a lot more). All the 'howevers' are exactly what we have been pointing out over and again on here to the people that haven't understood the law or the case.

The Claimant holds gender-critical beliefs, which include the belief that sex is immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity. She engaged in debates on social media about gender identity issues, and in doing so made some remarks which some trans gender people found offensive and “transphobic”. Some of her colleagues at work complained that they found her comments offensive, and, following an investigation, her visiting fellowship was not renewed. The Claimant complained that she was discriminated against because of her belief. There was a preliminary hearing to determine whether the Claimant’s belief was a philosophical belief within the meaning of s.10 of the Equality Act 2010(EqA).

The Tribunal held that the belief, being absolutist in nature and whereby the Claimant would “refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment”, was one that was “not worthy of respect in a democratic society”. Accordingly, the Tribunal concluded that the belief did not satisfy the fifth criterion in Grainger plc v Nicholson[2010] ICR 360 (“Grainger V”). The Claimant appealed.

Held, allowing the appeal, that the Tribunal had erred in its application of Grainger V. A philosophical belief would only be excluded for failing to satisfy Grainger V if it was the kind of belief the expression of which would be akin to Nazism or totalitarianism and thereby liable to be excluded from the protection of rights under Articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) by virtue of Article 17 thereof. The Claimant’s gender-critical beliefs, which were widely shared, and which did not seek to destroy the rights of trans persons, clearly did not fall into that category. The Claimant’s belief, whilst offensive to some, and
UKEAT/0105/20/JOJ notwithstanding its potential to result in the harassment of trans persons in some circumstances, fell within the protection under Article 9(1), ECHR and therefore within s.10, EqA. However:
a. This judgment does not mean that the EAT has expressed any view on the merits of either side of the transgender debate and nothing in it should be regarded as so doing.
b. This judgment does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity. The Claimant, like everyone else, will continue to be subject to the prohibitions on discrimination and harassment that apply to everyone else. Whether or not conduct in a given situation does amount to harassment or discrimination within the meaning of EqA will be for a tribunal to determine in a given case.
c. This judgment does not mean that trans persons do not have the protections against discrimination and harassment conferred by the EqA. They do. Although the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under s.7, EqA would be likely to apply only to a proportion of trans persons, there are other protected characteristics that could potentially be relied upon in the face of such conduct.
d. This judgment does not mean that employers and service providers will not be able to provide a safe environment for trans persons. Employers would continue to be liable(subject to any defence unders.109(4), EqA) for acts of harassment and discrimination against trans persons committed in the course of employment.

mummarama · 10/06/2021 10:48

I just saw Jonathan Ross congratulate Maya on Twitter. Interesting. I thought he'd been re-educated.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 10/06/2021 10:49

that could potentially be relied upon in the face of such conduct: see footnote 1."

I shall rely upon others for the close reading of the footnote as I'll be caught up soon - it will be helpful to see it scrutinised.

Taswama · 10/06/2021 10:50

Just listening to this on Woman's Hour. At last they are talking about it!

SelfPortraitWithEels · 10/06/2021 10:51

[Flowers] Flowers Flowers for Maya!

I don't get that bit of the judgement, though - what other protected characteristics might be relevant if someone doesn't qualify for gender reassignment?

Rhannion · 10/06/2021 10:51

Have a good look at page 58 on the judgment...!

Mermoose · 10/06/2021 10:51

Delighted to see this. I'm in Ireland, so we'll be trailing British women's rights by about 50 years as usual. Maybe in 2070 we'll get the right to say that women's rights matter, fingers crossed.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/06/2021 10:52

Omg that is brilliant!!!

MrsBunHat · 10/06/2021 10:52

I just saw Jonathan Ross congratulate Maya on Twitter. Interesting. I thought he'd been re-educated.

Yes well done Jonathan. Reason will out.

Helmetbymidnight · 10/06/2021 10:53

What a relief!

Thank you to all the brave women who've spoken out - especially Maya.

CardinalLolzy · 10/06/2021 10:54

"This appeal is about the much narrower issue of whether the Claimant’s belief as to the immutability of sex is one that amounts to a philosophical belief under s.10, EqA. For the reasons we set out below, we have come to the conclusion that it does."