LOJ - things not going as planned

[InvisibleDragon]

Just saw Owen Jones' latest facebook post - encouraging people to pre-order a book by Shon Faye called "The Transgender issue" and suggesting that the press are "waging war on trans people."

So far, so much the same.

www.facebook.com/100044175262126/posts/383548556460983/?sfnsn=scwspmo

But the comments on the post are largely very critical. People are asking whether the book presents both sides of the argument; they are highlighting the war on women; pointing out the importance of safeguarding ...

I've never seen this before - it's a huge change from the usual response.

If some people have the impression not only that the women's movement has wanted to give women the same kinds of access to politics and business that men had, but in fact has wanted to get rid of a lot more than that, it affects how they think about the whole project. And there are men and women who think that is what's happened, and there are in fact women who would say that was the goal, who don't think that male based organisations are ok and in fact can be pretty disparaging about them in a way they are not about female based organisations. You might tell them the things you wanted were important and the things that were taken from them are stupid, but that's because you don't value them.

😂 what a load of incoherent shit.

'I think it's worth taking this sort of complaint somewhat seriously. There are quite a few feminists who take the view that men-only spaces should generally be abolished or if allowed, seen as bigoted. And subsequently lots of men-only clubs and groups have become mixed. '

Examples please rather than veering off.

Don't waste your time Gerbil...

Honestly it's not with it.

#Meh

@SmokedDuck

And there are men and women who think that is what's happened, and there are in fact women who would say that was the goal, who don't think that male based organisations are ok and in fact can be pretty disparaging about them in a way they are not about female based organisations.

Could you give some examples of these organisations?

The more this reaches the mainstream the more people are like “nah! not having it”

I think SmokedDuck has a point.

I have heard several people complain about the loss locally of single sex scout groups, a men-only debating club, a boys’ school and (further afield) all-male Oxbridge colleges.

I can explain till blue in the face that the Scouts, at least, went mixed in order to keep running. DH amongst others still thinks it was all about being PC.

@NiceGerbil

'Most people aren't deeply embedded in these arguments, what they see around them in terms of the women's movement is how they interpret it. I can see how people might feel like women are arguing for the legitimacy of women only spaces having completely delegitimised male only spaces, and so their sense of something unfair happening to women isn't being alerted.'

I touched on this earlier.

Women wanted access to men's 'sphere' - education, employment, decision making.. the public sphere (as per Victorian ideas).

In return men want access to women's sphere- the 'private' sphere. But not the shit bits. The bits they have always been suspicious of or fascinated by.

So women wanted equality in decision making, education, employment and opportunity.

In return men want to be in places where women are getting undressed.

Is what it boils down to.

100%. When women wanted access to men's golf clubs, for example, I believe it was in significant part down to wanting access a place where men do business.

Well I was just at a dinner the other day where someone was fulminating about how outrageous it is that Eton has never had a female headmaster (the current deputy is female) and that such a small proportion of the teachers are women, and it should be 50% "at least, because there are more female teachers than men in the profession" and that all-male schools are toxic/misogynistic by virtue solely of being single sex. I went to an all girls school which was consistently ahead of Eton in the league tables, we have never had a male head and the % of male teachers was tiny - that was different, apparently, because women's led organisations are healthier, fairer, to be valued and preserved and encouraged etc.

Now, not calling out Eton in particular, but I do feel that if I as a woman feel that single-sex women's organisations, clubs, associations and schools have huge value to me (which they do!) I have to assume by analogy that men's organisations and clubs have a similar value to men. Historically, business deals etc have been conducted in these spaces because women were excluded from the business world, not just because those spaces existed. As more women achieve positions of power and influence in business, supported by all the things that women have been fighting for - affordable childcare, access to education/training/mentorship, funding for entrepreneurs, etc. then women's only networks in business become powerful as well. In my industry I'm a member of a women's only whatsapp group called "Ladies in XX industry" which is an incredibly powerful network - one of my male colleagues asked me to ask on the group the other day about a job recommendation and immediately we got the person (a woman!) that we needed.

that all-male schools are toxic/misogynistic by virtue solely of being single sex

I think this conversation risks derailing the thread but have you read James Rhodes autobiography? The amount of rape and sexual abuse that's happened in boys schools (by teachers as well as pupils) has been a significant problem historically. Instinctively it feels like having female staff in them can only lead to positive changes. And young boys need to have adult women around them as models too, particularly boarding schools with all the attachment issues they lead to. My grandad went to boarding school from 7 and came into contact with very few women until university. The end result was not pretty - in his view, women were lesser beings to have sex with or elderly women to laugh at on account of them being old/overweight. They were caricatures to him. Add in the fact so many boys watch porn and I think all male schools can be extremely damaging environments.

There is an imbalance. I am sure that boys and girls can both benefit from single sex education. The difference is - I think - that single-sex schools for boys are more likely to be damaging to the individual boy, and to society due to the types of men they churn out.

We have quite a few men's groups here, and I haven't heard anyone complaining about them.
e.g. Men's mental health groups;
"Men's Sheds" - workshop-based spaces for men, sort of DIY based, but really providing a space for men to get together, to reduce social isolation; young fathers' groups. It's quite a deprived area, and there are groups targeted to various vulnerable populations.

But if you want single-sex schools for girls, single-sex schools for boys – for better or worse – are the inevitable corollary. Sorry if I'm being too obvious.

You're not being too obvious. What on earth goes wrong with the upbringing of some men?

I speak as the very happy and loving wife/mother/daughter/son/friend/colleague of many lovely, decent, respectful men. Longwinded say of saying NAMALT!

@NiceGerbil

Which valuable male only spaces have feminists removed or tried to remove?

Can you give some examples?

Round here there are (or were before covid)

Groups for older men living alone
Dad's and babies groups (yes ok the bacon sandwiches thing is annoying but I doubt anyone actually complained!)

In town there are gay gyms.

That's all I know of just from general life. It's not a thing I have looked into.

Oh and the men's pond at Hampstead that women had no interest in disrupting until they were told that the women's pond was self id. And I suspect that was a one off- I suspect and hope the men who use it are still in a male only environment. And as a space where gay men could be relaxed (as the women's pond used to be for lesbians) I hope that the men still have that.

What things are you thinking of?

I was inundated a few months back by someone who sells lingerie who wants men only clubs to go mixed. Cant remember if it was one in particular or all of them. I remember there was an interesting article in the Spectator (from a woman) about why they should be left single sex. I found it quite persuasive and didnt sign the petition in the end. I felt it was hypocritical of me (if I had signed) at a time I was, and of course still am, so intent on preserving women's spaces. I do absolutely see your point about public and private, btw. I just felt uncomfortable for myself in saying we should keep something they shouldn't.

What clubs? Did they go mixed? This was one random person?

There's plenty of men only stuff in London. That's fine.

@PenguindreamsofDraco

I was at uni with that person. Her company features men modelling frilly knickers, so I guess she's coming at it from a fairness perspective. Which I kind-of agree with. I can't decide. She was very kick-ass at uni; female president of the JCR etc.

Here we go Emily Bendell campaigning for the Garrick to admit women. She sent me 10+ emails about it (cos I'm quite important dontcha know ).

Her website advertises such items as this not at all aimed at the male gaze combo [[https://www.bluebella.com/collections/lingerie-sets/products/set-emilia-black here]]

And did it work?

I've never heard of her by the way.