LOJ - things not going as planned

[InvisibleDragon]

Just saw Owen Jones' latest facebook post - encouraging people to pre-order a book by Shon Faye called "The Transgender issue" and suggesting that the press are "waging war on trans people."

So far, so much the same.

www.facebook.com/100044175262126/posts/383548556460983/?sfnsn=scwspmo

But the comments on the post are largely very critical. People are asking whether the book presents both sides of the argument; they are highlighting the war on women; pointing out the importance of safeguarding ...

I've never seen this before - it's a huge change from the usual response.

Worse even. He doesn't care about women enough to hate them. They're just not in his world view at all.

This is totally the impression I get when I read what he says. I don't think he actively hates women, I just don't think he really even considers them. The idea that women are humans who might have needs or desires of their own, that they might want to organise in order to advocate for themselves, is just alien to him. He literally never listens to what women have to say on this issue, the idea that they might not want to just move over and make way for males leaves him scratching his head.

Agree that women don't feature in OJ's world view. I've found this with other left-wing men - if you express a feminist viewpoint, like worrying about grooming gangs, or being opposed to self-ID, or wanting to end the exploitation of prostituted women, they accuse you of being right-wing. As far as they're concerned, there's just left (good) and right (bad) and the idea of a unique feminist viewpoint that centres women is completely alien to them. They have no idea about feminist writers, or feminist theory, or any of the feminist debates over the last 50 years. Women just don't compute.

Women..? 😲

Organising..? 😲😲

On the Internet? 😵😵😵

Next talking point for the new news thing.

Should women be allowed to use the internet?

The internet was built by men for men and is a male space. The type of vigorous debate and close to the bone banter so natural to male comrades often upsets females of a nervous disposition.

There is also the problem that they are very easily led, with little rational ability. This leads to easy radicalisation of the nation's gestational womb baby growing launderbots.

As a SOCIALIST I have long been concerned about helping those in society who have natural disadvantages or are less able.

I propose that the computer industry globally produce products in two variants. Pink and blue.

Vagina cervix people who are cis will only be allowed to purchase pink ones.

These will have limited internet accessibility with only access to hand picked websites allowed. A new govt department will be created to curate these sites and decide who is cis. The Dept for the Education and Enlightenment of those Persons who are Threatened Heavily by Rationalism and Truth. DEEPTHRT.

there is no need to act around cervix uterisers accessing eg VPN, tor, or building their own devices from scratch as they do not have the ability to do this.

Any man or boy found to have allowed a vaginal penetrateee to use a male device will be told off. Any ovulator procreator type mammal of human species found to have used the device of a man or boy will be imprisoned for life.

This is imperative to be acted on immediately to help. It's the kind thing to do.

Send money to [email protected]

DEEPTHRT

@RoyalCorgi

Agree that women don't feature in OJ's world view. I've found this with other left-wing men - if you express a feminist viewpoint, like worrying about grooming gangs, or being opposed to self-ID, or wanting to end the exploitation of prostituted women, they accuse you of being right-wing. As far as they're concerned, there's just left (good) and right (bad) and the idea of a unique feminist viewpoint that centres women is completely alien to them. They have no idea about feminist writers, or feminist theory, or any of the feminist debates over the last 50 years. Women just don't compute.

This is so true too. These men decide what feminism is and isn't and what women are and aren't allowed to think and feel. And to them feminism is absolutely fine so long women understand that males still get to do what they want in certain situations. So, women wanting female only single sex spaces is definitely not OK if some males want to use those spaces as well.

James O'brien is another example of this. A self declared 'feminist' but couldn't understand women wanting female only spaces? Because to them, feminism isn't actually about what women want, it's about what women are allowed to have.

@Bordois

Women..? 😲

Organising..? 😲😲

On the Internet? 😵😵😵

BAAAADDDDD women!

Because to them, feminism isn't actually about what women want, it's about what women are allowed to have.

I did see a male who identified as a woman the other day describe feminism as working towards women getting better treatment from men. The person really had no idea.

easy radicalisation of the nation's gestational womb baby growing launderbots

😂 I want a t-shirt with that on!

@Helleofabore

Because to them, feminism isn't actually about what women want, it's about what women are allowed to have.

I did see a male who identified as a woman the other day describe feminism as working towards women getting better treatment from men. The person really had no idea.

Why is it framed as some sort of justice for adult males to gain access to female spaces and sports?

I've asked this myself but a comment on another site made me think.

A woman had posted something relatively gender critical and finalized it with a sentence about protecting women's spaces.

One of the replies was a man saying, "You're taking men's spaces. This is what you get"

I don't have an account on the site, so I could not reply but my thought was "What all man's spaces have we breached? The government? Management? The public sphere? Men still have private clubs and societies that we cannot enter like the Masons and Bohemian Grove. Men effectively still have a monopoly upper management and government? And women have certainly never lobbied to use men's bathrooms, changing rooms or other protected set asides.

Somehow treating women as legal humans is a huge problem for some men as they see it as an attack on them.

Yes exactly.

Women wanted into the public sphere that was men's. Government, good jobs, decision making, pubs even.

In return men want access to women's sphere- the private. Not the boring home stuff. But the stuff they have always wondered about, been suspicious of, fantasised about. Men have been obsessed with what goes on in women's loos for years. And of course anywhere we're getting undressed, having time with other women and no men there, that stuff.

That's equality, see.

It's the old. Women wanted equality. Ha! We can punch you in the face now.

Just so. Every bit of progress made by women is to some extent turned against us. Patriarchy innit.

@irishfeminist

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/dec/06/my-life-in-makeup

Makeup for men by Sean Faye.

I loved the flash of SF's blue eyeshadow heading up the article before, so it's such a shame the picture has now been replaced by one of Eddie Izzard, who I personally think struggles to find the right shade of lipstick for their skin tone.

Here it is again. Much better.

And yes, totally agree with the sentiments about LOJ and pals not being interested in listening to actual women.

It’s a bit like a bunch of expats opining at length about the country where they reside but having no interest in or time for the locals whatsoever - and yet still convinced that they alone are the experts.

Thanks, hadn't noticed the original photo was gone! I think it's really important that that photo of Shon Faye is spread far and wide because it really shows you who and what Shon Faye is.

Also isn't it AMAZING that SF invented the idea of men wearing makeup in 2014!

@Alicethruthelookingglass

Why is it framed as some sort of justice for adult males to gain access to female spaces and sports?

I've asked this myself but a comment on another site made me think.

A woman had posted something relatively gender critical and finalized it with a sentence about protecting women's spaces.

One of the replies was a man saying, "You're taking men's spaces. This is what you get"

I don't have an account on the site, so I could not reply but my thought was "What all man's spaces have we breached? The government? Management? The public sphere? Men still have private clubs and societies that we cannot enter like the Masons and Bohemian Grove. Men effectively still have a monopoly upper management and government? And women have certainly never lobbied to use men's bathrooms, changing rooms or other protected set asides.

Somehow treating women as legal humans is a huge problem for some men as they see it as an attack on them.

I think it's worth taking this sort of complaint somewhat seriously. There are quite a few feminists who take the view that men-only spaces should generally be abolished or if allowed, seen as bigoted. And subsequently lots of men-only clubs and groups have become mixed. Yes, often because people wanted it or for some practical reason, such as scouts where they hoped to increase membership. But the effect on those who valued those spaces was the same, and there has been a sense too that those spaces are unimportant Where girls are recognised as needing female spaces and role models, boys need for those things isn't given much weight.

Most people aren't deeply embedded in these arguments, what they see around them in terms of the women's movement is how they interpret it. I can see how people might feel like women are arguing for the legitimacy of women only spaces having completely delegitimised male only spaces, and so their sense of something unfair happening to women isn't being alerted.

Which valuable male only spaces have feminists removed or tried to remove?

Can you give some examples?

Round here there are (or were before covid)

Groups for older men living alone
Dad's and babies groups (yes ok the bacon sandwiches thing is annoying but I doubt anyone actually complained!)

In town there are gay gyms.

That's all I know of just from general life. It's not a thing I have looked into.

Oh and the men's pond at Hampstead that women had no interest in disrupting until they were told that the women's pond was self id. And I suspect that was a one off- I suspect and hope the men who use it are still in a male only environment. And as a space where gay men could be relaxed (as the women's pond used to be for lesbians) I hope that the men still have that.

What things are you thinking of?

'Most people aren't deeply embedded in these arguments, what they see around them in terms of the women's movement is how they interpret it. I can see how people might feel like women are arguing for the legitimacy of women only spaces having completely delegitimised male only spaces, and so their sense of something unfair happening to women isn't being alerted.'

I touched on this earlier.

Women wanted access to men's 'sphere' - education, employment, decision making.. the public sphere (as per Victorian ideas).

In return men want access to women's sphere- the 'private' sphere. But not the shit bits. The bits they have always been suspicious of or fascinated by.

So women wanted equality in decision making, education, employment and opportunity.

In return men want to be in places where women are getting undressed.

Is what it boils down to.

It’s a bit like a bunch of expats opining at length about the country where they reside but having no interest in or time for the locals whatsoever - and yet still convinced that they alone are the experts.

It's the Sean Connery effect.

You think boys don't have an enormous range of role models?! Yowzers.

I get you're a spam it but why hit this thread?

Bizarre.

Maybe LOJ is a keen Couponer?

@NiceGerbil

You think boys don't have an enormous range of role models?! Yowzers.

If you don't want to even make an effort to think through people's perspectives and try to see that some people might see how things have evolved quite differently than you, their actions are going to remain mysterious. It's not even about whether they are correct though it's generally healthy to consider that from another perspective the whole thing could look quite different, the fact is that how people understand what happens in society makes a big difference to how they'll respond to what is going on.

Lots of boys have no men in their lives and would benefit from the kinds of organisations that would have in the past connected them to real male role models, not rock stars or athletes they'll never meet. It's a fair bit more common now than girls in a similar situation.

If some people have the impression not only that the women's movement has wanted to give women the same kinds of access to politics and business that men had, but in fact has wanted to get rid of a lot more than that, it affects how they think about the whole project. And there are men and women who think that is what's happened, and there are in fact women who would say that was the goal, who don't think that male based organisations are ok and in fact can be pretty disparaging about them in a way they are not about female based organisations. You might tell them the things you wanted were important and the things that were taken from them are stupid, but that's because you don't value them.

No examples then.