'Anyone With A Cervix'

[User456987]

I don't know what's worse here. 'Anyone with a cervix' (so presumably including infant girls??), the complete absence of the word women, or the #dropyourpants hashtag.

So saying people with a cervix is the right thing?

Because people who have had certain surgeries know they don't have one, and trans men know they do because they're likely more than aware of the fact they're female.

Is that right?

And the idea is that if the message goes to women, then women who have had this surgery, will feel that they're being told they're not women?

@WoolOfBat

So looking at that definition transwomen are both men and women unless they have had complete bottom surgery and removed their testicles?

There're still men regardless of surgery as they remain 'the sex that produces sperm'. (Quite correctly, the definition for male doesn't say it's a person who produces sperm as of course that would wrongly exclude infertile men)

I'm disabled and through my formative years there was a reminder every minute of every day, of what I couldn't and never would be able to do.

Is it really a good idea to say people with a cervix for this reason? Even though loads don't know what it is? And most young women don't even know if they have one?

And if it's an upsetting thing, which I totally understand. Isn't saying people with a cervix just as much of a reminder?

@NiceGerbil

So saying people with a cervix is the right thing?

Because people who have had certain surgeries know they don't have one, and trans men know they do because they're likely more than aware of the fact they're female.

Is that right?

And the idea is that if the message goes to women, then women who have had this surgery, will feel that they're being told they're not women?

I've got a friend who had a hysterectomy just after I had mine. She was still hoping she'd have children one day but obviously that dream ended. She had a breakdown, eventually she got on with life but if a nurse said, "Why haven't you booked your smear?" to her as they have to me she was be very upset.

Suggesting you need a smear if you have a cervix seems far less traumatic than telling her or someone like her that they need a smear when they know they don't.

You only need a smear if you have a cervix, what is so controversial about that? If you are saying being a woman means you have a cervix then yes you are telling people like me and my friend we aren't women. For me that is laughable for her it is trauma.

@NiceGerbil

I'm disabled and through my formative years there was a reminder every minute of every day, of what I couldn't and never would be able to do.

Is it really a good idea to say people with a cervix for this reason? Even though loads don't know what it is? And most young women don't even know if they have one?

And if it's an upsetting thing, which I totally understand. Isn't saying people with a cervix just as much of a reminder?

It isn't as upsetting to some women because if you feel you are less of a woman because of surgery then saying women should all have a smear is reinforcing that feeling.

The point is saying you need a smear if you have a cervix and are eligible by age is accurate (I can't remember the ages now as it is useless information for me.)

That campaign is utter utter maddening nonsensical bolux.

But women without a cervix don't need a smear test. I think that is being clear.

No one is getting a smear test these days. Cells from the cervix are no longer smeared onto a slide. Instead, labs are now looking for HPV. And that is a test still carried out in women who have had a hysterectomy where the cervix has been removed. (It's called a vaginal vault test.)

And the drop your pants isn't merely unnecessary. Or crude. It's insensitive. And it's inaccurate. We take them off and put them aside.

But loads of women don't know what a cervix is.

And I don't see how the nurse saying to your friend 'have you got a cervix' would have landed any better tbh.

The point is saying you need a smear if you have a cervix and are eligible by age is accurate (I can't remember the ages now as it is useless information for me.)

Half of all women do not know they have a cervix. That's according to research carried out by various cervical cancer charities. And not just in the UK.

So by writing a public health campaign that addresses people with a cervix instead of women, you are excluding half of your target audience. Half. That's negligent. Irresponsible. All for the sake of 1% who wish not to be called women. (And it's not even for them. Not really. As always it's about those who wish to dissociate the word women from the female sex for their own benefit. No matter if that puts women at risk.)

And that is wholly unnecessary. We can target that 1% in a specific health campaign that uses sensitive and appropriate language. Just as we do for women who are ESL speakers or who are blind or those with cognitive impairment.

@CharlieParley

But women without a cervix don't need a smear test. I think that is being clear.

No one is getting a smear test these days. Cells from the cervix are no longer smeared onto a slide. Instead, labs are now looking for HPV. And that is a test still carried out in women who have had a hysterectomy where the cervix has been removed. (It's called a vaginal vault test.)

And the drop your pants isn't merely unnecessary. Or crude. It's insensitive. And it's inaccurate. We take them off and put them aside.

Well according to my surgeon it isn't necessary.

www.wsh.nhs.uk/CMS-Documents/Patient-leaflets/Gynaecology/5777-3SmearTestsAfterHysterectomy.pdf

Maybe you should let the NHS know they don't need to do smear tests and that women without a cervix still need screening.

@NiceGerbil

But loads of women don't know what a cervix is.

And I don't see how the nurse saying to your friend 'have you got a cervix' would have landed any better tbh.

So cause my friend and others great distress rather than a bit of education. How sensitive.

@CharlieParley

The point is saying you need a smear if you have a cervix and are eligible by age is accurate (I can't remember the ages now as it is useless information for me.)

Half of all women do not know they have a cervix. That's according to research carried out by various cervical cancer charities. And not just in the UK.

So by writing a public health campaign that addresses people with a cervix instead of women, you are excluding half of your target audience. Half. That's negligent. Irresponsible. All for the sake of 1% who wish not to be called women. (And it's not even for them. Not really. As always it's about those who wish to dissociate the word women from the female sex for their own benefit. No matter if that puts women at risk.)

And that is wholly unnecessary. We can target that 1% in a specific health campaign that uses sensitive and appropriate language. Just as we do for women who are ESL speakers or who are blind or those with cognitive impairment.

Just to be clear my friend does want to be called a woman, she just doesn't want her identity to depend on if she has a cervix or not. Just like when people say, "Women have wombs." or "Women can give birth." She's a woman but those things don't apply to her. It disturbs her.

Feeling 'less of a woman' because of not having a cervix is the problem then.

A societal issue about what women are valued for and seen as. That sort of thing.

I don't know anyone who would think a woman who had had surgery of that type was less of a woman.

If we're to base our descriptors for female sex on what patriarchal society values us for then that's a massive capitulation.

Women and girls are still murdered for not bearing children. For bearing the wrong sort of children.

Women and girls are still judged by men on their sexual desirability. And if lacking, they're a lesser sort of woman.

The age of invisibility. No longer in reproductive years. Invisible.

The idea that women must have their language modified, to refer to them by their reproductive parts. To appease feelings in part related to the still very limiting ideas about what women are for. Is not a good idea.

And especially as it means that loads of women won't know the message is for them.

I I've told you I'm disabled. Coming to terms through childhood and teen years that I would never do loads of stuff that everyone else does, that is visible all the time. Was a very long process. It fucked me up somewhat which is understandable. However. I don't want everyone else to do this sort of thing.

The children in hospital weren't angered or upset by books about. Dunno. Running dancing. Living a longish life. Not spending months every year in hosp.

I can understand upset but I cannot understand the idea that the world should change, putting others at harm, to avoid using upsetting me.

And I still don't get how have you got a cervix is a more sensitive question.

Ancientgran.

You said

'. She had a breakdown, eventually she got on with life but if a nurse said, "Why haven't you booked your smear?" to her as they have to me she was be very upset.'

I said the question do you have a cervix would be no less upsetting.

What do you want the nurse to have said?

And to be brutally honest.

Facing up to these things is incredibly difficult. Can take years. Sometimes never is got over. Trauma due to all sorts of things is not well handled. With all sorts of results.

In the end though, it is what it is. You can't change anything. Whatever you are going through, the world keeps going.

And the best thing is to try to accept it. Not like it. Not, but get angry, upset, depressed. Not, not go off the rails etc. But accept that this is how it is for me and it can't change. And that's a thing to live with as best you can.

People will ask your friend. Have you got kids? Why did you decide not to have kids? Etc etc. People are nosey and insensitive.

I don't think changing the language for a test that can and does save lives, so that the message is not clear. Will help anyone. The message will not land. Fortunately this message isn't always the way, but you should like that. Women would die as a result. And your friend will still be fielding questions that people think it's normal to ask, news about babies in the family or at work, and happy families all over the telly.

I cannot understand why this is desirable from any angle.

Just to be clear my friend does want to be called a woman, she just doesn't want her identity to depend on if she has a cervix or not. Just like when people say, "Women have wombs." or "Women can give birth." She's a woman but those things don't apply to her. It disturbs her.

I wasn't talking about your friend. She is not the reason why the word woman is being erased from a public health campaign about a gynaecological cancer only women can suffer from.

And I understand that she is struggling with having had her cervix removed because the patriarchal society we live in ties a woman's worth so tightly to her body, and socialises us from a young age to accept and internalise that male-centred value system that any deviation from the norm can cause self-doubt and even loathing.

But erasing the word woman from a public health campaign that only concerns women is not going to help your friend.

The only thing that can do that is the people who love her telling her that phrases like women have wombs or women give birth do not mean that all women have wombs or give birth and that those who don't aren't women but that only women have wombs or give birth.

Which means that any woman who does not have a womb or who does not give birth is no less of a woman for that. That's because woman means no more or less than being an adult female of the human species. That statistically speaking an average woman will have a womb and will give birth doesn't exclude women who don't have a womb or who don't give birth from the female sex. And it certainly doesn't deny their womanhood. Because that's not how class categorisation works.

Those are patriarchal arguments designed to devalue women. There's no reason why your friend should believe that and it's most definitely not what women's rights campaigners are saying.

Woman isn't an identity.

If you're an adult human female you're a woman.

Irrespective of what may or may not have been removed/ be functional.

Post menopausal women don't have periods.

I have never ever heard of any issue with statements like, these pads are designed with women in mind.

Your friend is in for s lifetime of upset if she can't accept that she has had this surgery and what it means.

I mean this kindly as someone who took decades to come to terms with my situation.

Reminders are everywhere. Trying to get them stopped isn't going to work. Kids are everywhere. Pregnant women are everywhere.

Yes it's shit but this is not the right approach. It's lashing out at the millions and billions who haven't done anything wrong. They've just not had that surgery.

Yes it's hard. I feel for her. But in the end. There's only one thing to do which is accept that for you, that's that.

I'm sorry.

Yes, it's bad to not specify age groups.

Hence, transphobes have to stop saying "only women menstruate", because they know girls aren't always women.

Plus, maybe stop being transphobic and acknowledge that some women don't menstruate but some trans men/boys and non-binary people do? How does that harm you?

Is there a
“Anyone with a prostate” advert too?
Why is all I see women’s language being changed and not men’s?

Plus, maybe stop being transphobic and acknowledge that some women don't menstruate but some trans men/boys and non-binary people do? How does that harm you?

You know, men used to control women for years by withholding information about women's bodies amd how they work keeping them.ignorent kept them.under control . Men also restricted their access to medical treatment and withheld consent. In.some countries they still do.

That's wht medical.language should always be clear and factual akd easy to understand. Amd children should be taught biological facts and truths about their bodies Including what sex they are and what that means.

Medical advice and information is not there to be validating or to preserve feelings. It's tenor to keep everyone healthy and in control of their bodies and to keep them safe because not knowing what you are and what happens to you amd whats appropriate when it does is a safguarding issue.

Less confusion.. more facts.

How does that harm you?

It's been described in countless threads on FWR over the past four or five years how female erasure is harmful to women and girls, Pumpkin, you could try a search.

Just to be clear my friend does want to be called a woman, she just doesn't want her identity to depend on if she has a cervix or not. Just like when people say, "Women have wombs." or "Women can give birth."

But they do. Just like when people say "humans can walk on two legs". If you can't walk, or have one leg, it doesn't apply to you for medical reasons and I imagine that is upsetting to deal with. But regardless, humans as a species are bipedal, ie they walk on two legs.

It's not about "identity"

Maybe you should let the NHS know they don't need to do smear tests and that women without a cervix still need screening.

I'm pretty sure that some women who have had a hysterectomy do still require cervical screening.