Boris Johnson in marrying as a "Catholic" has annulled his previous marriages and delegitimesed his children - these are the ethics of our current prime minister

[stumbledin]

On one level I dont care either way about this but thought it strange who could get married in a Catholic ceremony. But as ever our resourceful PM has "negotiated" a path that suits him - and insults his formes wives and their children. As someone on facebook said, this is how Etonians learn to rule the world! What an utter w*er!!

" ... Catholic canon law does not permit the marriage of a divorcee whose former spouse is still alive.

However, the church confirmed that as neither his six-year first marriage to Allegra Mostyn-Owen, nor his second 27-year marriage to Marina Wheeler were Catholic ceremonies they are not recognised in the eyes of the church.

... In order to marry in a Catholic church, Mr Johnson could have had his two previous marriages recognised as annulled.

(or) ... his previous marriages, for which he would have required special dispensation from the Catholic church, those marriages would have "had a lack of canonical form" and could therefore be considered invalid. ... "

Interestingly these comments are from a Telegraph article late yesterday www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/29/boris-wedding-did-prime-minister-marry-carrie-symonds-catholic/ which has now disappeared and been replaced with this much less questioning article www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/30/boris-johnson-carrie-symonds-catholic-church-wedding-married/

Wonder if some Telegraph Tory leaders got in touch and said dont be so mean!

As they say, one rule for the rich, one rule for the poor.

Not really a case of one rule for the rich and poor, but of a religion only recognising its own ceremonies.

My mother had a church wedding, got divorced, and got her marriage canonically annulled. This was in another country (Catholic majority) but my parents were not particularly wealthy.

Both my parents remarried and I don't see that this was in itself insulting either to the other or even less so to me. (It could have been more insulting for my father, since while the civil divorce was a 15 minute no fault no dispute hearing, annulments need a reason and there I recall it was officially his "immaturity" or something like that - but he was unfaithful, so I suppose we could class it as that!)

The time for "delegitimisation" has long passed - Johnson is not Henry Tudor!

Don't see the problem.

If the previous marriages were not recognised as valid as they were not performed by the Catholic Church, they do not need to be annulled before he can marry according to their rites. This is his first time getting married in their eyes. i.e. as a sacrament.

It has no extra effect on his children. Religious marriages don't change the status of your children in law.

I don’t care about church doctrine, but I think it is a huge insult for Johnson to agree that his previous marriages didn’t count, particularly the one that resulted in 4 children.

There is no reason why they couldn’t have got married in a registry office months ago, and given the circumstances it’s ridiculous for either of them to claim that they care deeply about Catholicism.

I know a few people who have done this, it’s not something I’m going to get in a froth about.

I wouldn't get too upset about it, he'll be on to the next one before we know it.

I do think it will make him look religiously and morally incontinent to my staunchly Catholic Tory exFiL, who up to now has been a fan.

I can see that this is another example of Johnson pressurising or expecting people to conform to his wishes, where other people would not get the same treatment. But I find it hard to care too much about the specifics, because that is all oddness related to specific religions and it's up to people who believe in those religions to care or not about whether this is an issue for them.

Children are never illegitimate in the UK any more, thankfully, in nearly all circumstances unless there's a hereditary title to inherit (or not). So this will make no difference legally to his existing children, although I suppose that won't necessarily prevent any feelings of betrayal, abandonment or similar.

separation of church and state is a good thing.
Catholic - or any- Church is free not to recognise any marriage they didn't perform.

I don’t have an issue with this.

I am divorced and plan to get my marriage declared invalid by the Catholic Church if I want to remarry.

Unless his former wives are Catholics, in which case they could oppose it anyway through the church, what do they care what the Catholic Church thinks of their marriage?

This is about pointless Catholic Church rules not Boris Johnson.

I couldn't care less.

Don't see the issue. Carrie Symonds is Catholic so Boris seems to have come back to Catholicism through her. He was actually confirmed as an Anglican. I really doubt that he, nor anyone else involved, has given it a second thought. Plenty of people who are not the PM do this too.

Is anyone actually surprised? Does anyone here actually think Johnson has ever shown any signs of being an ethical person? All the evidence suggests he lies, cheats and uses his way through life. Nobody even knows how many children he has, quite possibly including Johnson himself. I wasn’t remotely keen on Jeremy Corbyn. I was still surprised when the UK chose a probable psychopath over him.

Are you Catholic?

Surely if you are you know people who married this way. My own parents did in the 70s, on a council estate in the north of England - not a rich nor powerful person to be seen.

I don't think you really know what you are talking about.

An annulment doesn’t make the children of that marriage illegitimate under Canon law. Though I don’t suppose any of them are Catholic anyway. And it may not make a lot of difference to their opinion of him in any event!

but only in a church way, not in a state way?

They are still legally recognised as his children. screw the church.

But yeh, it's so shabby.

The status of his former marriages and children is one of National law, not canon law. There is no such thing as an illegitimate child in U.K. law.

I don’t like Boris Johnson or the Catholic Church, but neither of those things govern the legal status and protections given to parties to, and children resulting from, a marriage.

He doesn't have any ethics so the behaviour, on his part, is completely unsurprising.

Carrie Symonds is Catholic so Boris seems to have come back to Catholicism through her.

Come back to Catholicism? By shagging a much younger co-worker at a works do and then sheepishly ending up with her because his wife had finally had enough of his adultery?

what do they care what the Catholic Church thinks of their marriage?

Very little I would guess, but they might care about what he thinks about their marriage.

If that was the only bad thing he had done. He didn't think about his second wife or his children when visiting Jennifer Arcuri.

For those who seem not to get the point it is about his hypocrasy.

It is irrelevant what you regard as legitimate or not, but by colluding with Catholic values he is saying he accepts that his former marriages weren't "real". And any children from the marriages not legitimate.

Its not hard to grasp that this is about an ammoral man. And what his conduct says about his values.

Listen, I don't like the PM and I'm not a practising Catholic as I don't believe in god, but the things you are saying are factually not the case within the context of Catholic doctrine. All children born within marriage, putative or valid, are considered to be legitimate, regardless of anything that happens afterwards.

Base your criticism of Johnson on something you know about.

I'm not Catholic or religious, but a quick bit of Internet research reveals that children of marriages viewed as annulled by the Catholic Church are not considered illegitimate in terms of Catholicism. And in terms of UK law, they are not now illegitimate either.

Johnson is a shifty shit, and regarding his previous two marriages as inconveniences to be dealt with in a way that best suits him now is totally typical behaviour for him. If it turns out that other divorcees with previous non-Catholic marriages have been refused permission to marry at Westminster Cathedral, but Johnson was given special privileges, then that would be hypocritical. Is that definitely the case?

Oh come on! The Catholic church seems to bend the rules to suit itself. Anulling previous marriages indeed - the law of the land doesn't look at it like that. Anyway, let's hope Boris keeps it in his trousers from now on!

I’m a Catholic and I personally know quite a few people who were not permitted to have a marriage or even blessing in the Catholic Church because they were divorced - it didn’t matter where they were married previously- whether a civi marriage or other church. I appreciate if you aren’t Catholic and don’t know anyone refused a Catholic marriage you probably don’t care. No idea what his previous wives might think about it - I suppose it depends if their marriage was annulled or not.