Boris Johnson in marrying as a "Catholic" has annulled his previous marriages and delegitimesed his children - these are the ethics of our current prime minister

[stumbledin]

On one level I dont care either way about this but thought it strange who could get married in a Catholic ceremony. But as ever our resourceful PM has "negotiated" a path that suits him - and insults his formes wives and their children. As someone on facebook said, this is how Etonians learn to rule the world! What an utter w*er!!

" ... Catholic canon law does not permit the marriage of a divorcee whose former spouse is still alive.

However, the church confirmed that as neither his six-year first marriage to Allegra Mostyn-Owen, nor his second 27-year marriage to Marina Wheeler were Catholic ceremonies they are not recognised in the eyes of the church.

... In order to marry in a Catholic church, Mr Johnson could have had his two previous marriages recognised as annulled.

(or) ... his previous marriages, for which he would have required special dispensation from the Catholic church, those marriages would have "had a lack of canonical form" and could therefore be considered invalid. ... "

Interestingly these comments are from a Telegraph article late yesterday www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/29/boris-wedding-did-prime-minister-marry-carrie-symonds-catholic/ which has now disappeared and been replaced with this much less questioning article www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/30/boris-johnson-carrie-symonds-catholic-church-wedding-married/

Wonder if some Telegraph Tory leaders got in touch and said dont be so mean!

As they say, one rule for the rich, one rule for the poor.

@TooOldandTired

it makes the Church look like there is one rule for the rich and one rule for the poor.

You saying this over and over doesn't make it true. The rules are the same for all catholics.

I love all the non-catholics who suddenly give a shit about how cannon law works because it gives them a reason to slag off BJ.

Yep.

Actually most people I've met who have remarried with annulments in the RC Church - not exactly what happened here, but similar outcome - have been low-income immigrants from cultures where they married young.

It's the people complaining about this who are asking for one rule for Johnson, one rule for everyone else. If you want a society where the church uses the pulpit to intervene in party politics by targeting individuals - crack on ...

I will try one more time.

I dont care about any faith in fact or their particular set of rules.

So the point is Boris is now claiming he has reverted to the Catholic faith.

Catholic church does not recognise marriages carried out in other religious places.

So in terms of (currently) being Catholic Boris is saying my other marriages aren't marriages, therefore the children of those marriages aren't legitimate.

So airy fairy remarks about all children are legitimate is just swerving round the point. That in holding to or reverting to the Catholic faith Boris is effectively saying his children are illegimate.

This isn't about using the Catholic faith to get at Johnson it is saying this perfectly illustrates that he has no values and uses and dumps people when he sees fit. Particularly women - and apparently his own children.

He is an ammoral and unfit person (not in religious terms) and this latest jolly hockey sticks escapade just further confirms it.

Yet the establishment and servile media will keep on giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Off course there is every possibility that his children are only too happy to have him out of their lives, but it must be a fairly negative experience to have your father publicly saying all that family life we had isn't actually valid.

But he isn’t saying his children are illegitimate.

You can’t just make up what illegitimate means.

No organisation with any legitimacy claims that the children of an invalid marriage are illegitimate.

So the point is Boris is now claiming he has reverted to the Catholic faith.

But he isn't? Not that I've seen. I mean for all I know he could have, but why would he? He doesn't need to be a practising / believing Catholic to be married to Carrie in a Catholic church.

He was baptised a Catholic and - be fair to him - that wasn't his call.

He's not saying the family life wasn't valid. He's saying it wasn't based on marriage as understood in the Catholic church.

Honestly, I understand why you'd dislike him. Sleeping around while married to the mother of your children is showing all the disrespect for family and marriage anyone could ask for.

But you don't rock up at a Catholic church, persuade the priest you are a good, holy boy and get them to marry you as a prize for good behaviour. It's not the establishment endorsing him. He has never married in the Catholic church before so presumably isn't bothered. Carrie presumably wanted a Catholic marriage. He qualified.

He is certainly a toad and a philanderer.

@LibertyMole

He is certainly a toad and a philanderer.

Yes. And it is a great shame if anyone sees this marriage as endorsing his behaviour.

I find it far more disrespectful to cheat on your wife and mother of your children than to declare the (already dissolved) marriage wasn't legitimate under the rules of a faith they may or may not believe in themselves.
And if they are not Catholics*, what difference does it make what the Church think? I don't really care what a sect or religion I am not a member of think of what I do or what I should be allowed to do, or if my marriage is valid in their eyes or not. It makes no difference to my life or my faith.

*I have no idea if they are or are not!

Catholic church does not recognise marriages carried out in other religious places.
Not so - the RC church recognises all legal marriages regardless of where they are carried out. The RC church sees marriage as a pillar of society and a fundamentally important institution for the welfare of children.

It is irrelevant what you regard as legitimate or not, but by colluding with Catholic values he is saying he accepts that his former marriages weren't "real". And any children from the marriages not legitimate.
I'm no Boris fan, but you are wrong here.

Annulment doesn't render children 'illegitimate'.

He is a baptised RC and any marriages he entered into with non-RCs outside of the RC church without seeking RC permission are sacramentally invalid. He is also legally divorced, a civil proceeding recognised by the RC church.

So he is free to marry another RC in the RC church, and as long as they are both deemed to be proceeding according to the rules of marriage in the RC church all is well as far as it goes.

People on this thread are throwing terms around willy nilly without apparently any knowledge of what the terms mean. The terms 'legitimate' and 'valid' are not interchangeable.

Carrie presumably wanted a Catholic marriage. He qualified.

Surely this is all it is. I doubt he cares all that much by wedding #3 or feels that he is making any kind of statement. He is presumably just giving the bride the wedding that she wants. Boris is odious but this isn't one of the things that makes him odious.

Seeing as the Church of England was literally founded when the Catholic Church wouldn't grant Henry VIII a divorce, it's not surprising that their marriage laws differ and that the Catholic Church doesn't recognise the Anglican marriages as valid in the eyes of God/The Catholic Church.

Not true.

Honestly, what do you all learn in RE class?

If a RC marries a CoE member or anyone else in the CoE without permission from the RC church, that marriage is canonically invalid.

It's legal, and the RC church recognises that. But it's not sacramental. The CoE does not recognise marriage as a sacrament and therefore that concept may be hard to understand. But it is fundamantal to the RC church concept of marriage.

If two CoE members, or Baptists, or Seventh Day Adventists, etc., or any combinations thereof get legally married anywhere, their marriages are recognised as valid by the RC church. If either party from such a marriage subsequently wishes to get married to a RC in a RC church they will need to prove to the RC church that there was an impediment to the validity of their previous marriage at the time they got married. The impediments are the same ones a RC couple would have to prove if they sought an annulment.

The RC church is pro-marriage.

The CofE has the same sacraments as the Catholic Church. It does recognise marriage as a sacrament. Other than that I entirely agree with you.

Having looked this up, it would appear that I am wrong and the Anglican Church considers five of them to be sacramental rites not sacraments.

Carrie presumably wanted a Catholic marriage

But in that case shouldn’t the teachings of the Catholic Church mean something?

Obviously the church believes in confession and forgiveness, but in this case I think the gap between Johnson’s behaviour and the doctrine of the church is just too glaring.

Which ever way you look at it the reason that his current marriage is possible is that the church doesn’t fully recognise his previous marriage vows. It can’t be ignored that Johnson didn’t either, but not for any reason that could align with basic shared values (don’t be a shit), never mind Catholicism.

Maybe they wanted a church wedding. And they were able to have a church wedding.

Maybe like lots of people who marry in a church, they don't darken the doors from one year to the next. Or manage to summon up any religiosity whatsoever.

Actually this really fucks me off because the church refused to marry my DH and I because he was divorced (civil ceremony) with no kids. We ended up marrying in C of E church. Big Irish family weren't happy! 😬 I now think hang on a minute how has he managed to do this with TWO marriages behind him?! I recall we would have had to apply to the church to annul previous marriages which would have meant getting permission of previous wives. I can't imagine either of his being very happy!

Well I never knew this. Not that it will effect me in any way as I would never get married in a Catholic church or convert to a religion which has allowed child molesters to be protected.
I find it amusing how low the standards are quite frankly.
I couldn't care less whether CS and BJ stay together or whether he cheats/she cheats. There are double standards though. Just look at the vitriol single mothers get. Imagine if a 50 plus year old woman had this many children with the same amount of ex partners as BJ has, the nastiness would be very clear.

its anot about annullment or illegitimate kids op you are over thinking

DH (RC) divorced (CofE wife)- marriage was not annulled and we got married in RC church - i'm not RC. No questions asked it was totally normal.

as far as RC church is concerned this is his first marriage and the others don't need to be annulled. You're making this a bigger deal than it is it happens everyday

He hasnt made any suggestion about annulment or illegitimate kids and media havent either. It been clearly explained that its simply normal for the RC church to do this

I don’t think boris is particularly moral, but I don’t really see the issue here.

And for the poster who keeps moaning about Catholicism being ‘goady’ I mean, I really don’t get it. A religion isn’t being ‘goady’ by only considering members of that religion, I mean, really...
Why do you care what another religion thinks of you? It’s all a bit ‘look at me, take notice of meeee’ odd

as far as RC church is concerned this is his first marriage

And presumably Johnson is aware that this is why they allowed him to get married in an RC church, and that is why it is so offensive.

People are fallible and make mistakes, but this is a man who denied paternity on at least 2 separate occasions. His desire to commit adultery without facing up to the consequences seems almost pathological.

And yet he has the front to get married in a church with strict rules on sex outside marriage on the technicality that they don’t fully recognise his previous marriages.

I'm sorry you hate Catholics but can you try to rein it in a bit in public.

That is precisely what's offensive. Re merrymouses post. It's such a twisting of the spirit of a marriage.

@jakalaka

I'm sorry you hate Catholics but can you try to rein it in a bit in public.

What I find distasteful is the "Respect our right to disrespect other christians ceremonies". It's not hate to identify that something is disrespectful. And my mother is catholic. Still.

I thought that it was a basic tenet of the Catholic Church that if you pay us enough we'll look the other way.

Sigh, but the Catholic Church does recognise other marriages.

The only marriages they don’t recognise are marriages between a baptised Catholic and a non-Catholic without church approval.

If Boris had been CoE married to CoE wife and then converted to Catholicism, he would not have been able to marry in the Catholic Church. This happened to a friend of mine and is very sad. But the church has certain rules.

And for the record, I am not a Catholic. But to be honest, I don’t have that much issues with an absolute sleezebag (Boris) marrying in Church. Christianity is about redemption.

I have a much bigger issue with the Catholic Church’s view on abortion (mortal sin) and the way a divorced Catholic never should marry anyone else or have sex with anyone else ever again (adultery as the Church doesn’t recognise divorce, so...no communion until confessed, regretted it and received absolution ).

I also think that the role of the Catholic Church during WW2 is slightly at odds with papal infallibility. As is the role of the church in the historical child abuse.

In terms of all the attention on Boris’ marriage, I think this is just a stick to beat him with and less about the hypocrisy of the Church. Which is there.