Boris Johnson in marrying as a "Catholic" has annulled his previous marriages and delegitimesed his children - these are the ethics of our current prime minister

[stumbledin]

On one level I dont care either way about this but thought it strange who could get married in a Catholic ceremony. But as ever our resourceful PM has "negotiated" a path that suits him - and insults his formes wives and their children. As someone on facebook said, this is how Etonians learn to rule the world! What an utter w*er!!

" ... Catholic canon law does not permit the marriage of a divorcee whose former spouse is still alive.

However, the church confirmed that as neither his six-year first marriage to Allegra Mostyn-Owen, nor his second 27-year marriage to Marina Wheeler were Catholic ceremonies they are not recognised in the eyes of the church.

... In order to marry in a Catholic church, Mr Johnson could have had his two previous marriages recognised as annulled.

(or) ... his previous marriages, for which he would have required special dispensation from the Catholic church, those marriages would have "had a lack of canonical form" and could therefore be considered invalid. ... "

Interestingly these comments are from a Telegraph article late yesterday www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/29/boris-wedding-did-prime-minister-marry-carrie-symonds-catholic/ which has now disappeared and been replaced with this much less questioning article www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/30/boris-johnson-carrie-symonds-catholic-church-wedding-married/

Wonder if some Telegraph Tory leaders got in touch and said dont be so mean!

As they say, one rule for the rich, one rule for the poor.

But to be honest, I don’t have that much issues with an absolute sleezebag (Boris) marrying in Church. Christianity is about redemption.

Clearly different religions and different Christians have different opinions on this, but I think that claiming redemption through Christianity after the shit he has pulled just demeans Christianity. If he wants redemption through faith he can go to church and change his behaviour. There is no indication that he cares about either.

Even if you think monogamy is just for the boring and bourgeois, I don't think there is any moral framing that can justify denying paternity.

If his current wife honestly values Christian marriage, she should have married somebody else.

‘What I find distasteful is the "Respect our right to disrespect other christians ceremonies".’

They do disrespect other christian’s ceremonies. They are just saying that Johnson had already made a prior promise to only marry under the authority of the Catholic Church when he became a member. Having made that vow, any marriage outside of the church without dispensation becomes invalid. If he had sought a dispensation from the church to marry in the Anglican Church, he could have had a valid marriage within the Anglican Church.

The Anglican Church does not want to be under the Catholic church’s authority.

An analogy might be if I work for a baker making cakes. If I pop over to another baker and make them two cakes, I can’t then go back to the baker I signed my work contract with and say that I have done my contracted work. They are going to say those cakes are invalid work. It isn’t a criticism of the quality of the cakes.

Sorry, should have said they do respect other christian’s ceremonies.

Merrymouse I do see your point and I do agree that Boris has behaved appallingly. All the cheating, the paternity, the abortion (Petronella Wyatt seemed distressed by it), the multiple children and leaving his wife with cancer. I wouldn’t touch him with a barge pole. I think that Carrie is crazy to have him.

But I do believe that god can forgive everyone who truly repents. Even if people can’t and even if society doesn’t (I personally would like to see death penalty for child sex abuse). I am reluctant to comment on whether someone has changed in the eyes of god or not.

And in terms of the Catholic Church, I think they have bigger issues that a sleaze bag marrying in accordance with church law.

But we can agree to disagree on this one

I also think part of the problem here is that secular society has developed social justice as a form of religion, and social justice has no route to forgiveness. So we’re essentially taking on a Twitter style belief that people should not be forgiven, which is at odds with Christian belief.

I would never vote for Johnson for a multitude of reasons, and I am going to consider his past record when I predict how reliable he will be in the future. And that’s correct behaviour as a voter. But it isn’t correct behaviour for deciding who can get married.

According to the Catholic church, my brother and I are illegitimate too. This is what my mother was told about 15 years ago: she married my father when he wasn't baptised. 40-odd years later he became a Catholic, so perhaps I'm no longer a little b.st.rd.

Although I laugh about it, I am not religious. My mother, who is, was really upset to be told she wasn't actually properly married in the eyes of the church. The particular priest had the people skills of a rock. To be fair, I think pretty well any other priest would have been less insensitive.

You aren’t illegitimate. Even if the marriage was putative for some reason, the children are still considered legitimate by the church.

That’s the same in civil law as well.

So we’re essentially taking on a Twitter style belief that people should not be forgiven, which is at odds with Christian belief.

I think that it’s a Christianity rooted belief that whether you believe in salvation and/or forgiveness through faith or actions, a white wedding at a news cycle friendly time is not evidence that either has been taken seriously.

If he has had a come to Jesus moment churches are open every Sunday (or at least will be soon).

Who is requiring evidence though? I really don’t understand.

@LibertyMole

You aren’t illegitimate. Even if the marriage was putative for some reason, the children are still considered legitimate by the church.

That’s the same in civil law as well.

Well, that’s good to know! 😆

@LibertyMole

Who is requiring evidence though? I really don’t understand.

Option 1) Johnson cares deeply about the Catholic sacrament of marriage and accepts the implication that his previous marriages were somehow not as meaningful to him. I accept that this is the church’s doctrine, and perhaps they have no choice. (A C of E church can only refuse to marry people in particular circumstances, none of which have anything to do with the faith of those involved). However this is despicable in a man who won’t discuss how many children he has.

Option 2). He couldn’t care less and he is going ahead with a white wedding charade which makes a mockery of the vows he is taking, which to be fair is at least on brand for someone with his history of dishonesty. (Not just the usual ‘politicians lie’ dishonesty. The sacked from jobs kind of dishonesty.

None of this would matter if he were a private person, but it is all relevant to the way he conducts himself as Prime Minister.

oneglass I am so sorry your mum had to go through that. My friend was stressing out about having her children baptised (as the Church didn’t recognise her marriage) but her priest was lovely. I am a “witness” as I am not allowed to be a godmother (CoE) to her little girl. I do think of her as my goddaughter though .

Libertymole, that is a really good point about secular society. But it also shows how far away we are from all church teachings. I still remember when I was confirmed and the priest told me the difference between sin and crime. If you murder someone, you commit a crime against society and a sin as you go against the teachings of god. If you truly repent, god will forgive you instantly. However, the crime remains and the debt to society needs to be paid off.

In Boris case, he (probably) committed a multitude of sins. If he truly is sorry, god will forgive him and the church will accept his marriage.

But as a society we can still think he is a sleaze bag - which I do. I am just more concerned about his expenses as a taxpayer. And he should and will (hopefully) have all societal and legal repercussions for that.

I do maintain that, in my view, his sins and his relationship with his god is something between him, his god and his church.

I don't think Boris has necessarily converted to Catholicism. He has done what lots of grooms do, gone alone with his fiancee's wishes. She wanted to marry in a Catholic church and he has agreed. Next time the fiancee might want a register office wedding or a wedding abroad.
He has just nodded along without any additional thought whatsoever.

‘Johnson cares deeply about the Catholic sacrament of marriage and accepts the implication that his previous marriages were somehow not as meaningful to him.’

That isn’t the implication. His marriage is invalid due to lack of form (Catholic marrying outside church without dispensation). If the claim is that there is evidence his vows weren’t meaningful to him then his marriage would be invalid due to lack of consent, but nobody has made that claim.

There also isn’t a requirement for him to care deeply about the sacrament of Catholic marriage. The Catholic Church marries non Catholics to Catholics all the time. It could be that Carrie cares.

In terms of the white wedding charade, I reckon pretty much nobody in the U.K. thinks only virgins are allowed to wear white to their wedding anymore.

Woolofbat, indeed, I still think he is a philanderer and a toad.

That's an interesting post Woolofbat just because religion allows/forgives it does not mean the law or society does.
I think this highlights the widening discrepancies between what the church preaches and what society or individuals believe in. It also highlights the huge gap between the treatment of day women and men in religion.
Not so long ago, woman unmarried has a child, Catholic church punished the woman. The man is allowed to redeem and in fact welcomed into the church in this case a twice divorced man with an illegitimate child to his mistress is blessed by the priest. Would a woman be treated the same way? In the past absolutely not. Unmarried prisons and that was what they were still existed in Ireland in 1997 where unmarried women were incarcerated and raped by the priest.
The Catholic church, and indeed other religions, has got a hell of a long way to go to redeem itself.

He has just nodded along without any additional thought whatsoever.

But the implication of the nodding along is that he is getting a do over.

However, perhaps Marina was happy to be shot of him when she was getting cancer treatment. Perhaps his daughter doesn’t mind that he tried to deny their relationship.

He won’t be PM for ever, but Carrie will be stuck with her one Catholic marriage to an qb

But society allows do-overs. He can have as many civil marriages as he likes. What is the issue?

Carrie won't be stuck, she can get divorced whenever she wants.
Please don't try and say she is a devote Christian she was fucking a married man and has had an illegitimate child to him!
Jesus Christ. I bet she uses contraception too.

Oops - catholic marriage to an elderly ally cat.

I reckon Carrie has excellent grounds for annulment on the basis that it is entirely credible that Johnson didn’t mean his vows. After all most people on here believe that, so why shouldn’t a church court?

And Johnson will probably die in not that long anyway.

As a (now non practising) Catholic I was always led to believe that the RC church recognised marriage in other Christian churches but not civil ceremonies.

I think this situation with Bojo is a complete farce and so hypocritical of the church and the couple!

Onlinedilema, I agree with the different treatment between men and women in religion (hopefully Christianity is better today). Absolutely awful!! And I think there are so many things with how the various religions have interpreted the teachings of god with horrifies me.

In terms of the Catholic Church specifically, I listed several in a previous post. I definitely think your examples add to that. As does the view of suicide (beyond horrific). In the scheme of things, the Catholic Church has other and bigger issues that Boris’ wedding which is in accordance with their canon law.

And yes merrymouse. For Carrie, if things doesn’t work out with Boris, she will never be able to remarry or even date another man. If she does, the Church will deny her absolution and holy communion until she ends the relationship.