Young, Male and Anti-Feminist – The Gen Z Boys Who Hate Women

[MondayYogurt]

Sorry it's Vice, but possibly worth discussing: www.vice.com/en/article/dyv7by/anti-feminist-gen-z-boys-who-hate-women

Half of young men in the UK now believe that feminism has “gone too far and makes it harder for men to succeed”. These are the results of a significant study published in July 2020 by anti-extremism charity HOPE not Hate. The study, Young People in the Time of COVID-19, surveyed 2,076 16- to 24-year-olds on their ideological beliefs.

Nonnymouse: I asked them and they think that it is essentially misandry, that it encourages women to laugh at and hate men. One guy said that he thinks a lot of the rhetoric around sexual assault is hyped up and overblown to make it seem like all men are rapists. He said he was once felt up in a nightclub by a woman, and it wasn't a big deal so why are feminists complaining? Also, no one cares about men getting groped but women get special treatment.

Another guy said that there was no such thing as rape culture, or patriarchy, and these are made up concepts to shit on men. And he said feminism encourages the break up of the family and makes it seem like men aren't necessary as fathers, which is bad for society. There was a general perception that the goals of feminism have largely been achieved, and modern feminism is just an excuse to berate men and make them feel guilty. Oh, another classic - the gender pay gap is fake, women just make different career choices.

I'd also like to point out that these men were in their early 20s, highly educated (been to private school, uni), and came from super liberal countries (one was from Scandinavia.)

@SmokedDuck

Also - I think it's valid to say, in a thread about why young men don't like feminism, that they feel women don't have sympathy for their issues. It may or may not be true, but pointing out that they feel that way is not saying that FWR or even feminism should be about men. It's an answer to the questions raised in the OP.

There's really no point to discussing an article like this if we're not supposed to talk about how men feel or whether their needs in society are being met. Because those things will affect how they perceive women's issues too.

I agree.

IT'S NOT UP TO WOMEN TO END MALE VIOLENCE

I'd say it's TikTok. Thousands of strong young women there doing their thing pushing against patriarchy, misogyny etc and the young boys do not take it well. They're too uneducated about the subject / unaccustomed to it to accept and contemplate what the girls are saying and try and understand.

So they're lashing out and think that they're being oppressed by the girls. Not all men is a big big thing on TikTok and many of the comments dispute the % of women who have reported being raped/harassed.

@TriteMale
Other than telling women to help and fix men, what have you’ve done for men, or women or anyone ever?

They feel disenfranchised and they need a target to blame, because that's how blame culture works. And there's the manosphere greeting them with open arms.

Lets not forget that women attempt suicide at the same rate as men, most often after they experience domestic violence.

@WeeBisom

Nonnymouse: I asked them and they think that it is essentially misandry, that it encourages women to laugh at and hate men. One guy said that he thinks a lot of the rhetoric around sexual assault is hyped up and overblown to make it seem like all men are rapists. He said he was once felt up in a nightclub by a woman, and it wasn't a big deal so why are feminists complaining? Also, no one cares about men getting groped but women get special treatment.

Another guy said that there was no such thing as rape culture, or patriarchy, and these are made up concepts to shit on men. And he said feminism encourages the break up of the family and makes it seem like men aren't necessary as fathers, which is bad for society. There was a general perception that the goals of feminism have largely been achieved, and modern feminism is just an excuse to berate men and make them feel guilty. Oh, another classic - the gender pay gap is fake, women just make different career choices.

I'd also like to point out that these men were in their early 20s, highly educated (been to private school, uni), and came from super liberal countries (one was from Scandinavia.)

But none of these comments are worth dismissing without engaging.

Look at the pay gap - we know that to a large extent it's related to childbearing. We have no idea, if women really could choose what they wanted in their careers, if that would change the pay gap. We know some women feel pressured to work less than they'd like due to childcare related issues, but also some women feel pressured to work more than they'd like and prioritise career for money or due to social pressure. For all we really know, the pay gap could get worse if women could do what they wanted to, and it's not crazy for someone to think that might be the case, and it's not inherently sexist either.

The approach that says, if you disagree with me about how this works, you are a misogynist, is not doing feminism any favours.

I find the talk about suicide besides the point, as it's not at all equivalent to women demanding that men stop violence against women. For one thing, suicide is not just a male only issue. Women commit suicide too (it's at record levels among under 25s, risen by 95% since 2012 according to Samaritans) and are more likely than men to attempt suicide. For another thing, male suicide is not being caused by women. Male violence against women is caused by men. So this whole 'well women don't care about male suicide' is a massive non sequitur. Men killing themselves is not due to systematic oppression by women, and I doubt very much that women can do much to prevent men from doing it. Men raping and killing women is something that men as a class perpetuate on women, and women are entitled to be angry about it and demand that men stop it.

@SmokedDuck: I did engage with them.I was answering the question about why these men dislike even the most male-appeasing liberal feminism.
I also highly doubt, given their views, that anything I could have said would have turned them around and made them support feminism. But what I found interesting was these young men, who came from exceptionally liberal countries, appear to feel very put upon and very hard done by. They find feminism very threatening.

Which is exactly what some young men would say. "80 of us kill ourselves a week, we're not going to worry about 2-3 women a week until we've helped these men heal from trauma."
Well, that's great if more men are going to do something positive about male mental health, but what I usually find is they do absolutely fuck all, and just use it to derail any conversation about women's issues with 'what about men?!' I mean, I care about male mental health too, just as I care about child poverty, it's possible for me to care about issues that affect both men and women, so why can't they? Why do they hate women for talking about the issues that affect them? Why is any discussion about women's issues always interrupted by men shouting 'what about us?!' You can have your own conversations. We actually hear a lot about disenfranchised working class young men, not so much disenfranchised working class young women, of which I was one. Working class lads who muck about in school, bully girls and disrupt the class gets loads of attention. As a working class girl who tried to keep her head down and do well, I was invisible - you had to be a troublemaker to get any sympathy, and the troublemakers were usually boys. I distinctly remember one lad kicking me, and then I was the one told off for it because he lied and said I'd called him names - the poor boy's hurty feelings were, I was told by the deputy head, every bit as important as my bruised leg. It's great that you are working with young lads, the kind of lads who made school a living hell for me, and I'm sure there are the same initiatives for working class girls too, right? Ah wait, no, no-one gives a shit, that's right.

WeeBisom I think it's interesting what you say about some of these men coming from very liberal countries. As far as I see it, these countries aren't very liberal in terms of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. I think one reason why these countries have growing far right parties and a push towards conservatism is that any criticism or discussion around controversial issues is taboo. It's the Jante law ideal of not being individualistic, ambitious or non-conforming that other countries such as the UK often look upon as something to aspire to, but which I think is actually quite repressive.

@TriteMale

I think some parallels can be drawn between male suicide and spousal murder. In another current thread on here a poster linked loads of studies which concluded that men suffer almost as much domestic abuse and she was told "well, it's not killing many men."

I wonder if some men do the same with female suicide - "they may attempt suicide in similar numbers but it's not killing them" etc. It's easy to just see the headline of suicide being the biggest cause of young male deaths and ignore the nuances.

Thats not even close to what was said.

The OP was conflating domestic abuse (which can be verbal abuse) with domestic violence (which kills 2 women a week).
The OP also ignored the fact that every instance of self defence by women is counted as an instance of abuse in the statistics.
The OP also refused to link the sources of their statistics.

WeeBisom thanks for explaining what was said by the young men. I'm sorry for the very late response!

Intriguing that the men came from liberal and well educated backgrounds.
I wonder if a lack of frank discussion adds to a lot of these conflicts. There doesn't seem to be any neutral space to discuss and debate the various issues between the sexes.

It makes sense that feminism isn't the space to address what appears to be growing anti-feminist sentiment among young men. However, I do think the dynamics between the sexes is something that wider society will have to grapple with - ideally sooner rather than later. I get the impression young people, especially men, are unable to discuss contentious topics without being labelled as sexist, misogynist etc so misunderstanding, ignorance and resentment builds. The internet provides access to easy narratives that channel any feelings of grievance.

That's an interesting point, Novelusername, about lack of robust discourse in some countries maybe being a factor. I think that's also what Nonnymouse is saying.

It seems that whenever there is a polarised narrative or issue in a society, the more one side pulls against the other, the more extreme each are likely to become. Frustratingly, it's often the case that the more you repudiate a particular perspective, the stronger it becomes. That's part of the power of classical liberal democracy, it tends to create a kind of mediation and sometimes even a dialectic or synthesis. Or at least, a moderate compromise.

If you want a revolution it isn't so satisfying but revolutions always seem to beget counter-revolutions.

Male suicide rates are an issue. Obviously.

Trite out of interest do you post on male dominated sites as well? What sort of reaction do you get?

Women's and men's issues are different.

It's better for men to work to help men, as they understand better.
And for women to work for women.

Ideally with societal support, govt support etc.

I don't understand the who has it worse thing. We have it different. It's not a competition.

@NiceGerbil

Women's and men's issues are different.

It's better for men to work to help men, as they understand better.
And for women to work for women.

Ideally with societal support, govt support etc.

I don't understand the who has it worse thing. We have it different. It's not a competition.

Because it is a competition, one for resources. Any claim of disadvantage by one group is an implicit demand for resources for the disadvantaged group. This then becomes problematic because the reality of most groups is that they are composites, with the trait used to identify a group having a very limited relationship to that group’s supposed advantage or disadvantage. But I’m always kind of amazed how people don’t realise why identity politics are so contentious...