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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What Would You Do If Your Child/Grand-Child/Beloved Nephew or Niece Told You They Were Sure They Were Trans?

117 replies

BilindaB · 28/05/2021 05:13

They want to see a doctor and explore their options. How would you react? Let's say they are a teenager, but if you have personal experience of a child of any age telling you this, please share.

OP posts:
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 30/05/2021 19:43

@BilindaB

If they don’t feel trans then you won’t be dealing with the situation...

I also have younger nephews and nieces. I haven't asked them about trans issues.

Probably best not to ask them

Just leave them to come to their own conclusions

OldCrone · 30/05/2021 20:54

@Blibbyblobby

the discussion about why trans isn't the only way to go need to be more public

This x 1000

I am not "anti-trans", whatever that means. I'm pro humans.

I just can't believe that nature gets it so wrong so often that it should come to be usual to "fix" people's gender presentation with cross-sex hormones and surgery. This need to be perceived as the opposite sex has got to be a social problem, a rational reaction to the irrational social construction of gender in the first place.

That's what we need to be looking at, but that's what trans orthodoxy simply will not countenance. We are only allowed to challenge gender in its applicability or not to individuals, not as a flawed concept in the first place. There are some huge contradictions at the heart of the current trans orthodoxy but we are not allowed (by social pressure and threat of cancellation) to question them publicly.

Meanwhile this damaging orthodoxy is being presented as the only way to support people who reject the gendered social roles that are imposed upon them.

I agree. It's the whole idea of 'gender' and what it means in our current society needs to be examined.

How did we get from a there being a tiny number of people who were so distressed by their sexed bodies and/or the social roles expected of them that the only solution was major surgery and medication, to a situation where children are taught in school that they have a 'gender identity' which they should be 'exploring'?

Gender dysphoria was recognised until very recently as a rare medical condition (and since it has a medical 'solution', surely that's what it is). Why are children being taught to think about 'their gender' to discover whether they have this rare condition? It's obvious there will be a lot of false positives from such a strategy.

And how can we teach children that gender stereotypes are bad, at the same time as encouraging them to think that they have a 'gender identity', which can only be based on those stereotypes? It makes no sense.

chickenyhead · 30/05/2021 20:58

Teaching that gender stereotypes are bad starts from the cradle. It's in every thing you allow/disallow. Every thing you reinforce or criticise. Gender stereotypes are taught.

Gender identity is often something which can arise during the teen years. It is about identifying who they are, like sexuality or any of the other teen subjects of much interest. I don't believe Gender identity is taught.

Just my personal experience though and no doubt wrong.

hilarymantlepiece · 30/05/2021 21:00

Take them at their word and ask how they wanted to proceed.

OldCrone · 30/05/2021 21:14

Gender identity is often something which can arise during the teen years. It is about identifying who they are, like sexuality or any of the other teen subjects of much interest. I don't believe Gender identity is taught.

It is definitely being taught in schools. Search for the 'genderbread person' or 'gender unicorn'. This is what is being taught to children in school.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2020/10/03/supporter-success-genderbread-resource/

dyslek · 30/05/2021 21:24

I think I would really struggle if this happened to me, as in total honesty I dont beleive twaw.

No one has ever explained to me how a man can be a woman or what a gender identity is, and Iv asked a lot.
I wish someone who believes that a man is a women would explain, it would clear up so much.

dyslek · 30/05/2021 21:29

@chickenyhead

Teaching that gender stereotypes are bad starts from the cradle. It's in every thing you allow/disallow. Every thing you reinforce or criticise. Gender stereotypes are taught.

Gender identity is often something which can arise during the teen years. It is about identifying who they are, like sexuality or any of the other teen subjects of much interest. I don't believe Gender identity is taught.

Just my personal experience though and no doubt wrong.

I taught my daughters that gender stereotypes were nonesense. They went to a girls school in the early 200s and were taught that girls can do anything. Then they went to university. They now believe feminism is not for 'cis' women, women commit 50% of DV, women already have all the rights they will ever need, oh and women rape each other almost as much as men do. For this 'education' they will be paying for the rest of their working lives. Progress eh...
dyslek · 30/05/2021 21:32

Oh yes, and porn and being prostituted sex work is amazingly empowering.

NiceGerbil · 31/05/2021 03:18

'Oh I agree 100%. I've not been put in this situation, to answer another question I had no expectations about what response I'd get, and I hope it's informative and interesting for everyone. Nobody is attacking one person's approach. I'm listening and learning, even though I have my own ideas.'

What are your own ideas?

Many posters are sharing personal experiences. I have shared my own.

I think it would be good to hear your thoughts on your hypothetical.

JudithButlerNot · 31/05/2021 09:48

I've had these conversations (as a professional) with children/ yp. The first thing is to find out what they mean. It may not be what you think they mean so its important to be led by their understanding.
You may have to move on to the difficult dance between affirming their feelings whilst at the same time giving opportunity to think as broadly as possible for example a girl may well feel like a boy, that can be something you agree on but at the same time its possible to be curious what that means to them.
That can be hard work with teens/ pre teens because they can fly of the handle so easily, its not easy to remain present enough for the conversation to be useful particularly if its your own child. All those buttons to press!
The other one to bear in mind is boys cross dressing for sexual arousal. From talking to men this seems a fairly common developmental stage. Its important that boys are made aware, in a sensitive way, this is something different to being trans.

Marguerite2000 · 31/05/2021 10:10

@BilindaB

That was a response to

alexyyy Sun 30-May-21 05:50:11
''Are you saying that this isn't a real dilemma but you just wanted to see what people responded? So you took up my time and energy and thought for your own idle pleasure?''

...by the way. I can't seem to figure out how to quote people, is there a time limit on doing that?

To quote, click on the three little dots on the bottom right of the post, then click on quote. It only works if no one else has quoted that post though.

What I would do would depend on the individual circumstances really. Is the child autistic? Do they have mental health issues? Are they being groomed/bullied? Is there a possibility of social contagion? All these factors (and more) need to be considered. Overall though, I'm pretty much a believer in old school parenting, so I can't imagine rushing to affirm their new 'identity' .

BilindaB · 31/05/2021 10:17

*What are your own ideas?

Many posters are sharing personal experiences. I have shared my own.

I think it would be good to hear your thoughts on your hypothetical.*

Look on the first page, basically support and assure them I love them whatever happens. If they are trans they are trans, and I would take some comfort from the amount of trans people who say that they are much happier post-transitioning.

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9toenails · 31/05/2021 11:26

JudithButlerNot: ‘… for example a girl may well feel like a boy, that can be something you agree on …’

This is not something you should agree on, or even pretend to agree on, particularly as it is not true.

There just is no such thing as feeling like a boy. And this ‘no such thing’ is particularly strong: ‘to feel like a boy’ looks like it makes sense, just as ‘to go east from the north pole’ looks like it makes sense. But when you look at it and think about it, its meaning evaporates.

‘I feel like a boy’ makes no sense because there is nothing that it is to feel like a boy, just the same as there is nothing that it is to point eastwards from the north pole. (Or, a famous example, the time it is on the sun …)

JudithButlerNot: ‘… its possible to be curious what that means to them .’ Again, this is mistaken. Be curious about what they think it means to them, by all means. This is to the point as there is no such thing as ‘what that means’ to them, even though they think there is.

Of course this is nuance, JudithButlerNot: we surely agree on the basics here. But it seems important to keep a grasp on how things actually are. I agree with you ‘The first thing is to find out …,’ but I would say, ‘The first thing is to find out what they think they mean.’

-- After all, the best outcome all round would be if the young person in question were to recognise the status of ‘I feel like a boy’ as what it is, prior to engaging therapeutically with whatever it was that made them try to assert such a thing. Ime young people can be helped to understand this, even if sometimes, as you say, it can be difficult for the immature mind to grasp.

Tallwhitepine · 31/05/2021 14:05

If they are trans they are trans
How will you know?

yeahbutnaw · 31/05/2021 14:15

I'd love and support them.

Parents who try to force their children to be straight or cisgender ultimately end up driving their kids away.

BarbarianMum · 31/05/2021 14:26

@FightingtheFoo

I'd explain humans can't change sex.

I'd explain all the horrendous side effects from taking cross-sex hormones (which are usually used in breast cancer treatment and male chemical castration) from infertility to osteoporosis.

I'd explain that creating a "neo vagina" involves turning your penis inside out and taking bits of your colon or stomach lining and attaching it, that even Jazz Jennings - who supposedly had the world's best surgeons - has had four operations to try and fix the damage that has been done to him, that the neo-vagina needs to be dilated every day for life to stop it healing up and that, despite all of that, it will never function like a real vagina. I'd explain that even if you manage to have a successful operation you may well still lose all ability to climax. (Imagine trying to make an accurate model vagina from Play Doh. Now imagine doing that with skin, while trying to navigate scar tissue and bacteria and thousands of nerve endings etc).

I'd explain that creating a "neo phallus" requires multiple skin grafts from the arm or other part of the body. I would show them pictures of the scarring. I would explain that even after numerous operations a neo-phallus doesn't work like a real phallus and the best you can hope for is inserting a pump into some neo-testicles and pumping them during intercourse to make the neo-phallus erect.

I'd explain that even after all those surgeries - each one involving general anaesthetic, which is in itself dangerous - and inviting a range of issues from infection to sepsis that can occur with any operation - you still haven't changed sex. You have modified your body. And you may still not feel happy in it. You may even feel worse.

I'd explain that there is no one universal feeling of "male" or "female" - that we each are stuck with and in our own bodies and that whatever we sew on or chop off doesn't really change that.

And then I would sit down with them and try and identify what was causing them to feel so uncomfortable in their own body and how we could think about making them feel better without surgery or chemicals.

Honestly, I think youd get a minute and a half in and find you'd lost your audience. Young people dont make this kind of announcement because they want you to lecture them on how wrong they are. Maybe do your last paragraph first?
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 31/05/2021 14:28

bilinda

So is that really all you wanted from the thread

A bunch of posters on FWR to say they would love and support their children?

Did you think you’d get a different answer on this board in particular?

BilindaB · 31/05/2021 14:50

There are a myriad of different answers.

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ConcernedMum0 · 31/05/2021 14:52

Be kind to them and believe them. I'd you reject them now or treat them badly there's a very good chance they won't want to be in your life anymore.

BilindaB · 31/05/2021 14:52

I've asked a perfectly reasonable question and won't be answering any more posters making me defend posting it.

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RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 31/05/2021 14:52

There are indeed a myriad of answers

But is ‘we would love and support our children’ what you wanted from the thread?

You didn’t want a discussion which is fair enough, but have you got the answers you wanted/expected

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 31/05/2021 14:53

@BilindaB

I've asked a perfectly reasonable question and won't be answering any more posters making me defend posting it.
I don’t want you to defend posting 😳

Its a perfectly valid question for you to to ask...im only asking if you are happy with the answers?

BilindaB · 31/05/2021 14:59

You didn’t want a discussion which is fair enough, but have you got the answers you wanted/expected

Its a perfectly valid question for you to to ask...im only asking if you are happy with the answers?

I've found them very interesting and some have made me think.

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thirdfiddle · 31/05/2021 15:51

"Believe them"?
I'd believe they are experiencing what they describe themselves as experiencing. And try to find out what that actually is. "Being trans" is one interpretation of a set of experiences, "being tired sick of fighting stereotypes" might be another interpretation of the exact same set of experiences. Many of us absolutely recognise the experiences these young people are describing.

FlyingSquid · 31/05/2021 16:09

I’d agree that you can’t ‘make someone cisgender’ but that’s because I don’t see that cisgender is a thing beyond ‘please attach gender stereotypes to me’.