Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.

[Fallingirl]

Posie is planning to re-build the women’s sector, starting with crowd funding for a women-only refuge.

I agree that posting links to existing female only services is great but also given the monitoring aren't they then liable to get a load of attacks etc?

That's how it works I think?

@NiceGerbil

I agree that posting links to existing female only services is great but also given the monitoring aren't they then liable to get a load of attacks etc?

That's how it works I think?

I used a translator. I can hear this in ma heed but cannae help you wi the accent. Just say it out loud from your gut. Pretend you are Cheryl Cole.

Ah think lasses knaa hoo te deal wi difficult lads

I respect and support women already standing up for women having strong boundaries with men and supporting vulnerable women by running female only shelters, I don’t think Posie is taking anything away from these women or criticising them.

If Posie was advocating an anti-feminist position then I wouldn’t support her, but she doesn’t seem to be doing this. She admits she does not have a feminist analysis, but despite this she has still came to the same conclusion that many feminist women have; that women should enforce firm boundaries with men and no men belong in female only spaces. I believe it was Janice Raymond who said women achieve more in the feminist movement when they park disagreements and focus on working together on achieving an agreed on aim. As long as Posie continues to park her disagreement with feminist analysis, and focuses on women maintaining firm boundaries with men and female only spaces I will continue to support her, it makes no sense to me to criticise or condemn her when she is in alignment with feminist aims even if she is not a feminist.

Moreover, Posie does seems to collaborate with women who do have a strong feminist analysis like Sheila Jeffreys and Julia Long, who will certainly know many other women in the sector, I see Posie as lending her support to feminists in her way. I think it is the academics who do call themselves ‘feminists’, but are very weak indeed at holding firm boundaries with men, and do actually slate feminists for having strong boundaries with men in their books that are actually a problem.

Ultimately, Posie seems to be advocating for holding firm boundaries with men, trying to create more female only spaces, and trying to gain public awareness of these problems, which is what I think needs to be done. She also does seem to be collaborating with strong feminist women. So I support her, just as I support all woman who are doing the same, and will happily donate to the fund, as well as to those that already exist like NIA. I can only see this as a positive.

Julia long is awesome. I once fangirled at her in the ladies. She was bemused

Clean lol way wrong on the accent but take the point!

The thing that gets on my nerves with this is it reminds me of all the times we're told. You couldn't focus on that, you should focus on this! What about that over there?

Etc etc

Women can do what they like with their money.

In the end for most it's going to be a small amount. Like all the other crowdfunders for women- lots of women small amounts.

Bunging a bit to this doesn't mean that women don't/ won't give to other stuff as well.

Telling women what they should and shouldn't do, with their money or anything else, is annoying.

Donate, don't donate. Whatever.

Why giving a fiver to this is met with oh you're practically donating to ?? random bad guys in different countries is beyond me.

I think it is the academics who do call themselves ‘feminists’, but are very weak indeed at holding firm boundaries with men, and do actually slate feminists for having strong boundaries with men in their books that are actually a problem.

Ultimately, Posie seems to be advocating for holding firm boundaries with men, trying to create more female only spaces, and trying to gain public awareness of these problems, which is what I think needs to be done.

I think you are pointing to something really important here, stopthis.
The difference between the academic or “professional” feminists and the grassroots is quite clear here. I hadn’t thought of it in terms of holding to strong boundaries before, but I think you are spot on. -which makes sense, as it is the women on the ground who would most clearly see the absolute necessity of strong boundaries, and not letting them be softened for the sake of “niceness”.

I think I know what you want the law to say

Well hark chief mindreader here. Share your skills.

The difference between the academic or “professional” feminists and the grassroots is quite clear here. I hadn’t thought of it in terms of holding to strong boundaries before, but I think you are spot on. -which makes sense, as it is the women on the ground who would most clearly see the absolute necessity of strong boundaries, and not letting them be softened for the sake of “niceness”.

What you're missing here is that in Posie's video and in her general approach over this issue, she's shitting all over grassroots feminists holding the line in women's services. These are often women who don't have a platform, but who are doing the work to secure funding, fight poor decisions, keep services going and help women on the ground, day in and day out, against a hostile environment of cuts.

I

@stumbledin

I have had time to read all the thread and I suspect what I have to say has already beeen said.

this is pure vanity posturing.

There are refuges that are women only. there are refuges that have women only services but also offer services to men. There are refuges that provides services to women but allow trans women, ie Rise in Brighton which is why it is almost comical that they go cut.

And no way is one refuge going to provide for services. You could just go to Women's Aid web site and look at the stats they produce as to the shortage of bed spaces.

And we are way way beyond the day of early refuges, which were in grubby squats and dependent on volunteers.

Women found long and hard to get sustainable funding to provide women with more than just a bed space. (In fact if anything the danger to women's services started when proper pay levels were established and then guess what, all sorts of applicants wanted the jobs even though they had no committment to feminist services. Look at the recent appointment of the new Director of Refuge.)

If any of you actually care about the issue, you need to get involved with your local refuge, you need to get involved with your local council and you need to keep an eye on corporate bids (from Housing Associations and / or viticm support orgs) which will under cut the costs of specialist services.

And you need to get Liz Truss to put her money were her mouth is as she has publicly said that the Government recognises that there is a need for single sex provision.

Even if enough money was raised to open a refuge the annual amount of money that would be needed to be raised would be unsustainable.

We need to reclaim the public money that comes from our taxes to make sure it is spend correctly.

And not let what happened in Brighton happen, which is some bidding process was set up that meant there was no weighting for specialist women's services. The Councillors themselves were taken aback at the result of their process.

So the best thing any of you can do, in the same way as raising awarenes about the GRA, is either as an individual or a part of a local women's pressure group to ensure there is provision for women refuge spaces and support.

This is a meaningless gesture more about saying I am more pure than you.

Please can we stop with this fanzine feminism and actually educate ourselves about the reality on the ground.

This. I wonder if some people are romanticising the idea of the DIY early days, but actually, given the scale of the problem, we need more money underpinning the women's sector than we're ever going to raise from crowdfunding.

Women deserve to have our taxes spent on our needs. We should be shouting this from the roof tops.

I've been reflecting on the vast differences of opinion and I think it's interesting to see how a person can say something (e.g. Posie's video) and it mean so many different things to so many people. And I wonder how much Posie knows this would piss a lot of women off, and if actually on some level that's part of the plan as she does love to stir, and here we are all discussing it and it's more publicity for her brand.

It feels surprising that other people can't see it, when it's so clear to so many of us that she's putting two fingers up to the women already working in this area (e.g. denying they even exist or pretending everyone in women's services is spinelessly going along with the TRAs), plus spreading information that's plainly untrue (e.g. the 2 refuges comment).

But actually, this is often Posie's MO. She does love to stir! She says things that are outrageously offensive to a particular audience in a way that if you weren't part of the audience, you probably wouldn't see it.

And then the people it's aimed at get pissed off, and everyone else is like "WTF are those mad bunch of bitches on about, Posie's just trying to do good, they must be jealous or something".

If she wants to help in this area, why is it necessary to go on the attack? It would have been very easy to attack those who have sold women out in the sector, while also acknowledging and standing with those who haven't. But instead she massively insulted them all. This is what I mean by Posie not collaborating.

Shonagh Dillon (who has huge experience in this sector) said on Twitter:

Let’s be very clear. There are plenty of refuges that retain single sex spaces for women. They might not be ready to join the public fight. But do not be fooled that the by women for women approach is a thing of the past.

That’s utter rubbish. Fact checking is useful.

Women need refuges that are run by women who understand the movement. If you want to donate or help contact your local DVA or SV service and ask them what they need.

Posie is on record as saying she thinks she's not been abused because she's never let herself be. That's victim blaming 101! That doesn't mean she can't help this sector. But her bull in a china shop "I know best" approach so a sector she clearly doesn't understand is extremely concerning.

Is it correct that public money is only going to women's sector services if they include men? That organisations that don't comply lose their funding?

Because that's what I've been reading on here for at least the last couple of years, and I don't remember seeing it challenged before.
So is that narrative correct or not? Yes or no will suffice.

I'll withhold judgement (and funds) until I see a greater depth and detail to the plans including aspects such as a management committee and so on.

Apologies if I have missed these and feel free to educate me by posting links (I did look).

This is nothing to do with Posie but simply a general strategy I employ when being asked to provide venture capital.

No. There is no decision on this at the national level AFAIK.

But, a simple yes or no doesn't cut it. There is a trend towards this happening, yes.

Brighton Rise, for example, lost its funding because they don't offer services for men, despite pioneering LGBT services in Brighton (in addition to services for women).

But, a blanket yes or no doesn't take into account that these decision aren't made at a national level. The Brighton decision was made by the local council. And, if they'd followed their OWN guidelines about taking social value into account (e.g. Rise's exemplary track record) they would have chosen Rise over the housing association and other non-specialists.

So, it's complicated.

Shonagh Dillon knows the sector inside out, so when she says There are plenty of refuges that retain single sex spaces for women. They might not be ready to join the public fight. But do not be fooled that the by women for women approach is a thing of the past. then you can take that as a reliable account of the status quo.

The poor decision that even went against their own guidelines in Brighton likely happened in my opinion, because of people not paying attentions plus vacancies in posts of people who should have been involved in this decision and those with a political agenda seeing their chance to push this through. By the time people knew what was happening it was too late to stop it.

We need to get to know our local councillors and lobby them on women's services to protect our services locally.

This is moving into the same argument women who care about sex based rights have been having for yonks now. Do we stay and try to fix the system from inside, or do we give up and start something new?

Well we've been banging away trying to do something about political parties etc from the inside and it's been glacial progress at best. The answer probably is to do both. But my concern is that however much we write and fund and support the women's services who are continuing to recognise and care for female people who cannot use the mixed sex spaces, those services are under constant attack from those who are not prepared to tolerate female only services being allowed to exist, even in very small numbers, and those wishing to dispose of them have many other well funded options to choose from. And right here on the thread are women who have found when they needed help there was nowhere they could go to escape the danger they were in. Because male people wanted them to not have any option but to be compliant with a male centric agenda.

I want those women to have an option. I'm fairly sure Detroit wouldn't have been in the least fussy about what that option was so long as it was male free provision. It would have been better than her starving hungry, freezing in a tent, with an untreated injury. This is the reality of what we're up against, and it isn't a good time to be fussy.

Sorry, I mean, that's one suggestion! There's a lot more that can also be done to protect women's services besides lobbying councillors. But when the Rise thing happened, it occured to me that I don't know my own local councillors, outside of the ones in the party I am part of (still, sigh).

I do see my MP, but councillors also have decision making power and so local women need to start making sure their counsellors are also informed about these issues. The importance of this hadn't occurred to me before, I don't know why! Seems so obvious now!

I want those women to have an option yes, we all do. I think it's rock solid that we agree on that, thankfully :)

Just adding too, since there's no data possible on this: there is no way of knowing, of all the women murdered in the past year through DV, how many of those women chose to stay in that situation to long because (to use experiences MNetters have shared) they rang the helpline to a women's refuge that they had been given and a male voice answered under the female name they had been given. So they hung up and were permanently put off approaching again for help.

Or who were told that they needed to get over their trauma and fear of male people and deal with mixed sex accommodation, or they were the problem and couldn't have help. (By staff apparently trained in trauma.)

Or who left a mixed sex refuge and went back to their abuser because they could not tolerate the mixed sex provision and had no other option.

Services aren't working for these women. More than two women are dying per week through DV. Drastic action is probably called for here. (And can you imagine the scale of the govt and press demand for action if a proportionate number of any other oppressed group was being killed at this rate?)

With respect

We need to get to know our local councillors and lobby them on women's services to protect our services locally.

You don't think women have tried that already? The wheels of local government move at a glacial pace. Local councils have made it perfectly clear up and down the country whose side they are on, that why PP isn't asking them for permission.

Shonagh Dillon knows the sector inside out, so when she says There are plenty of refuges that retain single sex spaces for women. They might not be ready to join the public fight. But do not be fooled that the by women for women approach is a thing of the past. then you can take that as a reliable account of the status quo.

Where are they then? If they aren't ready to join the public fight that leaves women on their own. Again.

Are women expected to approach them on an individual basis and find out what they each define as 'women' or in some cases 'female' and whether they apply single-sex exemptions - when you're fleeing in the dead of night this should be a safe assumption, not one you need to check at the door when you're there in the clothes on your back fearing for your life.

I've also been thinking of Detroit whilst reading this thread. A single sex women only refuge would have been her sanctuary for a while at least. I would happily put money towards something that doesn't see another woman like her freezing to her bones in a tent in a field.

If Posie is doing this for an ego boost or to stir the pot. Good. If that's her motive and women directly benefit from me giving her money to make her feel good about being a shero, then great. If she wants to stir the pot and change the conversation - we are here talking about her and her plans and actions aren't we - even better. Let's talk about why she's doing it, and how and who it will help and why it's needed.

Let's also talk about those trying to shut down her crowdfunder and their motives and who that benefits.

Let's have Jess Philips on the news saying why this is exclusionary and have Shonagh tell us how existing refuges aren't ready to join the fight.

Let's hear it. Let's hear it all.

No. There is no decision on this at the national level AFAIK.
But, a simple yes or no doesn't cut it. There is a trend towards this happening, yes.

Ok the 'yes or no' was probably unfair. So no decision at a national level but there's a trend and it's happening by stealth, yes? And quite honestly if services that retain single sex spaces daren't say so in public then that is deeply alarming.
I do wonder whether women working in the sector are experiencing a 'frogs in boiling water' thing because for me, as an outsider, that is totally bonkers and no way to live or work.
So I don't understand the hostility towards a campaign that would draw attention to this lamentable state of affairs.

I agree with you Artichokeleaves and it's noticeable that those arguing against Posie are using the same troped TRAs and MRAs use - we women just don't understand, just don't know what we are talking about, women must spend their money where we tell them to spend their money.

Posie is not daft she will get in the people she needs with the expertise required to run the service, Posie is merely providing the means to an end.

It doesn't really matter why the Rise debacle happened what matters is that it should never have even been contemplated that it would happen and "Oops we didn't realise, oh dear it's too late if only we'd paid attention sooner" is a disgusting cop-out. It has been obvious for a long time that single sex refuges for women have been under attack, there was a Parliamentary Committee held about it fgs, people in all positions of power both at local and national level know this is happening and for it to be written off as by the time people knew what was happening it was too late to stop it is just bullshit, they knew, they didn't care.

A number of people have said there is not enough provision currently, which is absolutely true, if Posie gets this off the ground then that provision will be added to plus this extra provision will be clear and unequivocal that they are resolutely single sex - no males however they identify - a strong message and one that would save people like Detroit from the appalling situation she is in through no fault of her own and will also bolster those services that are currently single sex with no exception to remain strong in the face of this onslaught.

Let's hear it. Let's hear it all.

This is my motivation too. Let's get it out there. None of this works in the shadows. (i'm not talking about actual sites, I know how secret a lot of this has to be).

Also, it might be reassuring for some people to know that Posie has said that she has the support and expert guidance of women who work in the sector.

Let's also talk about those trying to shut down her crowdfunder and their motives and who that benefits.

Yes.

Let's have Jess Philips on the news saying why this is exclusionary and have Shonagh tell us how existing refuges aren't ready to join the fight.

Yes.

Let's hear it. Let's hear it all.

Yes in full dolby surround sound, let's hear it.