Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.

999 replies

Fallingirl · 27/05/2021 21:39

Posie is planning to re-build the women’s sector, starting with crowd funding for a women-only refuge.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
NiceGerbil · 28/05/2021 23:09

And when it comes to massive damaging racism then again as an aboriginal Australian woman, your close to hand experiences, knowledge that you have, and with me at least as an English woman. Would be much more, well. Closer maybe somehow.

stumbledin · 28/05/2021 23:14

I have had time to read all the thread and I suspect what I have to say has already beeen said.

this is pure vanity posturing.

There are refuges that are women only. there are refuges that have women only services but also offer services to men. There are refuges that provides services to women but allow trans women, ie Rise in Brighton which is why it is almost comical that they go cut.

And no way is one refuge going to provide for services. You could just go to Women's Aid web site and look at the stats they produce as to the shortage of bed spaces.

And we are way way beyond the day of early refuges, which were in grubby squats and dependent on volunteers.

Women found long and hard to get sustainable funding to provide women with more than just a bed space. (In fact if anything the danger to women's services started when proper pay levels were established and then guess what, all sorts of applicants wanted the jobs even though they had no committment to feminist services. Look at the recent appointment of the new Director of Refuge.)

If any of you actually care about the issue, you need to get involved with your local refuge, you need to get involved with your local council and you need to keep an eye on corporate bids (from Housing Associations and / or viticm support orgs) which will under cut the costs of specialist services.

And you need to get Liz Truss to put her money were her mouth is as she has publicly said that the Government recognises that there is a need for single sex provision.

Even if enough money was raised to open a refuge the annual amount of money that would be needed to be raised would be unsustainable.

We need to reclaim the public money that comes from our taxes to make sure it is spend correctly.

And not let what happened in Brighton happen, which is some bidding process was set up that meant there was no weighting for specialist women's services. The Councillors themselves were taken aback at the result of their process.

So the best thing any of you can do, in the same way as raising awarenes about the GRA, is either as an individual or a part of a local women's pressure group to ensure there is provision for women refuge spaces and support.

This is a meaningless gesture more about saying I am more pure than you.

Please can we stop with this fanzine feminism and actually educate ourselves about the reality on the ground.

BattyOrange · 28/05/2021 23:19

I''m pleased to hear that, I'm just sad to see it's not raising funding at the same speed as Mays's attempt to be rude to her potential trans colleagues without consequence.

Blatant misrepresentation of Maya there.
Given that Posie's fundraiser is just over 24 hours old I think it's going great,

Refuges accept XX women regardless of how they dress, any hormones they may have taken, any surgery they may have had. Because they're women.

Cleanandpress · 28/05/2021 23:25

this is pure vanity posturing.

Whatever it is it drew you out with some action statements.

I am not put off by your use of the word vanity. I find it quite quaint really when applied to women. Like vanity mirrors in cliches about showgirls or those vanity sets in catalogues in the 70s for small girls, a small mirror and a toy lipstick.

Does Posie make you think of those stereotypes Stumbledin?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/05/2021 23:26

P.S. regarding this.

I understand that, but the presence of a trans man is far more likely to worry women in a controlled refuge.

I am not in agreement. Regardless, it is not your opinion or mine that matters, it is that of service users.

Extract
^A trauma-informed safe space creates space for action and recovery from violence and abuse and places the woman victim-survivor in control and in the centre. The trauma response described earlier is the antithesis of a space for action and recovery, so a trauma informed approach is based on understanding the physical, social, and emotional impact of trauma caused by experiencing violence and abuse. A trauma-informed service for women understands the importance of creating an environment – physical and relational – that feels safe to victims-survivors in all the ways I’ve just mentioned. For many women this means excluding men from their recovery space, and yes, this includes those who don’t identify as men. Their behaviour, the likelihood that they themselves may be abusive, is not relevant. If it is not women-only, it is not trauma informed for women who have been subjected to men’s violence.

We know that at least 80% of males who hold a gender recognition certificate retain their penis, but anyway, in almost every case, we don’t need to know what’s in their pants to know they are a man. Women experiencing trauma after violence and abuse will, like most of us – almost always instantly read someone who might be the most kind and gentle trans identified male in the world – as male; and they may experience a debilitating trauma response as a result. It’s not their fault, it’s not a choice and it’s not something they can be educated out of. It’s not hate. It’s not bigotry. It’s not transphobia. It is an impact of abuse and they need space, support and sometimes therapy – not increased confrontation with a trauma inducing trigger; not nowhere to go that offers a woman-only space.

To properly heal from trauma, in particular that caused by sexual violence, a course of counselling/therapy from a counsellor/therapist specially trained to deal with trauma/PTSD from sexual or domestic violence and abuse is often needed. Unfortunately, far too few women are offered this opportunity. Specialist women-led women-only organisations supporting victim-survivors of men’s violence are rarely funded to the extent that we can meet the levels of need that exist. All too often we’re contracted to do what commissioners value, this isn’t always what women want and need.

Women should not need to justify our desire for or the benefits of women-only space on the basis of violence perpetrated upon us or our sisters but we should recognise that some women need or benefit from it more than others. Not all women who are subjected to men’s violence and abuse will develop a trauma response. Not all women will be subjected to men’s violence and abuse, though globally one in three are at some point during our lifetime. Not all women who have been abused by men want women-only spaces but should they then take away the right of that space from those who do?

Of course, women who experience trauma/PTSD as a result of men’s violence are required to function in a world where men are present and for the most part, do. But women-only spaces in Rape Crisis Centres, refuges, women’s centres or women-only buildings or events, etc are spaces where women are not required to make all the mental self-adjustments to function in the presence of men. Women survivors and feminists (many of us both) created these spaces because we know how important this is. Somewhere we can function and feel OK, safe, maybe even relaxed and with our defences down and our vigilance switch turned low. Women who have been subjected to men’s violence deserve this down time, this head space. Women-only space for women who have been subjected to men’s violence and abuse is something that must be protected by those of us who don’t need it, for those of us who do.

Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.
Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.
NiceGerbil · 28/05/2021 23:33

So transmen at any stage of transition use male services?

So progressive.

stumbledin · 28/05/2021 23:41

Cleanandpress - I think your comment says far more about you than me.

You are the one who associates vanity(*) with female stereotypes. Time to get the men out of your head.

And of course your whataboutery it stops you from actually dealing with the issue.

(*) “vanity” refers to something empty, futile, meaningless, of no substance, or of no lasting value

Cleanandpress · 28/05/2021 23:44

() “vanity” refers to something empty, futile, meaningless, of no substance, or of no lasting value*

Ah, ok, that makes it better.

CorvusPurpureus · 28/05/2021 23:46

On the whole, I'm happy to have supported Posie, but I appreciate the reminder to also back NIA, so I'm doing that too.

I'm very glad there are different opportunities to support women & women's rights.

BattyOrange · 28/05/2021 23:47

What a very patronising post stumbledin.

If any of you actually care about the issue, you need to get involved with your local refuge, you need to get involved with your local council and you need to keep an eye on corporate bids (from Housing Associations and / or viticm support orgs) which will under cut the costs of specialist services.

Many of us have been intimately involved with our local refuge and our Local Authority for years and have way more knowledge and experience than you in the politics and the tendering/bidding processes. Don't try to teach a grandmother to suck eggs.

Please can we stop with this fanzine feminism and actually educate ourselves about the reality on the ground.
I suggest you take your own advice and "educate yourself". None of this has anything to do with "purity".

stumbledin · 28/05/2021 23:51

Whatever it is it drew you out with some action statements.

As i say this nearly every other week it has nothing to do with vacuous vanity projects.

It is part of what is the down side of FWR. Too many ready to adopt a posture but not do the work / engage with the grassroots.

The lack of knowledge of the history of WLM on here, and the basis on which many things were achieved by women working autonomously is really sad.

But (as I have also said many time before) we all have to take responsibility for not keeping our eyes on what is going on, eg the passing of the GRA to begin with, and failure to remain engaged with local women's services, whether refuges or rape crisis.

Just like DV provisions, far too many Rape Crisis support services are being handed over by funders to generic support services.

And why is that? Because those of us who believe in the value of women's autonomous services dont provide the wider context of making sure it remains on the agenda.

The backlash against women's liberation started in the 80s, and since then queer politics (which is what trans activism has grown out of) has taken hold.

If those of us who say we are concerned about women only services aren't prepared to be as well organised and committed as those who have been networking and infilitrating mainstream politics with the trans agenda, then we are part of the problem.

Cleanandpress · 29/05/2021 00:00

I have had time to read all the thread and I suspect what I have to say has already beeen said.

Did you read the thread or not before you swung in telling us we are part of the problem?

Cleanandpress · 29/05/2021 00:02

In fact you didn't swing in, you stumbled in.

NiceGerbil · 29/05/2021 00:14

I agree that laying into each other is no use.

Women can support more than one thing.

Of course the women who are working in these services have been and are doing their best and have not let anyone down.

The problem is funding and what is an unsurprising move by councils to move to cheaper services who have little experience, in order to fulfill their duty to provide this support.

NiceGerbil · 29/05/2021 00:16

Also statsgeek will you start a thread about your experiences? Or share your knowledge.

The plight of aboriginal women in Australia is something I would love to know more about- if you feel able to share I'm sure there would be interest.

Does your background shape your views around this issue do you think?

BattyOrange · 29/05/2021 00:18

Just like DV provisions, far too many Rape Crisis support services are being handed over by funders to generic support services.

And why is that? Because those of us who believe in the value of women's autonomous services dont provide the wider context of making sure it remains on the agenda.

We did. We continue to do so. As well as being stretched almost to breaking point by the demand for services on completely inadequate funding we fight for our services to be recognised as single sex. We're met with "proportionate means to legitimate aim on a case by case basis". Small charities can't afford repeated challenges in court so, mostly, they either capitulate or the LA commissioners award contracts to the cheapest/least challenging organisation even if they don't have the specialisms required to provide services women need.

You appear to be blaming women's support services for the current situation we find ourselves in - which, admittedly, is nice and neat. But I feel that view comes from a place of ignorance about the political and social realities of providing services for women recovering from experiences of male violence.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2021 00:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2021 00:19

Crikey.

BattyOrange · 29/05/2021 00:22

In fact you didn't swing in, you stumbled in.

Thank you Cleanandpress, that made me lol Grin Grin
Much needed.

BattyOrange · 29/05/2021 00:26

Eeeek Purg that was a quick one - 22 seconds!

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2021 00:26

Let me try that again. If you believe that Posie can create extra women's only services, then donate.

If you don't think she can do it, but you want women's only services for victims of intimate partner violence, donate to existing services to help preserve them. You can donate to Nia, or the Isle of Wight shelter, or approach another organisation off the record to find out their views.

www.wightdash.co.uk/support-what-we-do

Either way, you will be doing what you think is best for women.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2021 00:28

@BattyOrange

Eeeek Purg that was a quick one - 22 seconds!
I didn't realise I had to be so careful with links. Blush

Feel quite irked now, considering the spam that does get through after hours.

Fallingirl · 29/05/2021 00:37

It is a shame we are once again having to state the case for female only spaces on this forum. Heaven knows we have done it repeatedly for years.

Anyone who actually cares need only read the posts in this thread explaining trauma informed care. I would only say in addition to that, and the immediate trauma responses of abused women, it is absolutely crucial for all abuse victims to recover in a space that reinforces the message that every woman has a right to not only have boundaries, but to have them respected. They need a feminist space (regardless of whether it labels itself as such), that 100% tells women that they do not have to be nice to men at all times, they do not have to put a mans desires before their own needs, they do not have a moral obligation to prioritise any man over and above their own needs. A refuge space would ideally help women who may have spent decades learning to ignore their own wants, needs, and boundaries to recognise what these are. Putting a man who claims his need to be there outweighs women's needs for women only space into that space, reinforces for the women what their abuser had already taught them, that they should always put their own needs last. This is self-evidently not helping women break free of abusive dynamics. Regardless of the personality of any TW in a women's refuge, their mere presence constitutes an abuse dynamic.

As for whether we should support Posie’s endeavour, or existing women’s refuges; evidently women are more than capable of doing both, and it seems that Posie’s initiative has already motivated some people to donate to existing services, so this initiative has helped those services, which can surely only be a good thing, even in the eyes of those who are vehemently opposed to anything related to Posie.

As for the usual “dogwhistle” bla bla bla
This is the relevant dogwhistle. I highly recommend them:
www.adulthumanfemale.store/product-page/dog-whistle

OP posts:
Cleanandpress · 29/05/2021 00:45

And simply because I don't get mean with my money when JeanHatchett has a moment this is the service I support. It is where the women I grew up with needed it the most.

www.wwin.org.uk/support-us

Jean is a supporter.

Respect to all women doing their bit. Just give it a rest with the dog whistle identity theft.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2021 00:45

As for whether we should support Posie’s endeavour, or existing women’s refuges; evidently women are more than capable of doing both, and it seems that Posie’s initiative has already motivated some people to donate to existing services, so this initiative has helped those services, which can surely only be a good thing, even in the eyes of those who are vehemently opposed to anything related to Posie.

Exactly! 👏👏👏