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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.

999 replies

Fallingirl · 27/05/2021 21:39

Posie is planning to re-build the women’s sector, starting with crowd funding for a women-only refuge.

OP posts:
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18
statsgeek1 · 28/05/2021 22:28

@Datun

It's not just about risk statsgeek1, it's About women who have already suffered violently at the hands of men being triggered by the presence of men when they're trying to recover.

The motivation of any males, however they identify, is irrelevant.

I understand that, but the presence of a trans man is far more likely to worry women in a controlled refuge. Of course you could suggest just banning all trans people just in case.

I suspect that would then need the law to suggest trans people in general are a danger or just make people uncomfortable. I'm not quite sure western Europe wants to return to those dark days.

kindofcoping · 28/05/2021 22:29

A lot of women-only refuges are closing because contracts are going to organisations like Housing Associations who say they can run it more cheaply. This is the biggest threat to women's refuges.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/05/2021 22:29

Let me try that again...

I am, on the other hand, passionate about cats. I am trying to find somewhere to take some cats which were rescued from a household where they were used as bait for dog-fights. They are terrified of dogs and urinate in fear if they can smell one.

Would it be good for their psychological welfare to take them to a shelter with dogs, where they will be able to smell their fear 24/7? No. They will be retraumatised constantly. So I will search for a cat-only shelter somewhere, where they can recover from their trauma. If I cannot find one, perhaps I will establish one myself.

It's not about being "socially advanced". It's about feelings of terror. Would you place a child in care with an acute phobia of dogs (due to surviving an attack) in a foster home with a dog, because you thought the child was "socially advanced" enough not to attack the dog?!

extract

It’s not unusual for women who’ve been subjected to men’s violence to develop a trauma response. These sometimes develop after a single incident of violence, particularly with regards to sexual violence, though sometimes it can develop after years or months of living in fear, walking on egg-shells, recognising that tone of voice, that look in the eyes, that sigh, that pause, that silence, that change in his breathing. Some women have lived this, with a succession of perpetrators starting from their dad – who may have been physically, sexually or emotionally violent, abusive and controlling or a mixture of them all – all their lives.

Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) can develop in response to trauma that may have occurred recently or in the distant past. Those who have experienced sexual trauma, especially whilst young are at greater risk, with victims of multiple forms of childhood abuse and neglect most at risk of lifetime trauma[i]Women victim-survivors of child sexual abuse are at least twice as likely to experience adult sexual victimisation[ii]. 51% of adults who were abused as children experienced domestic abuse in later life and approximately one in six adults who were abused as a child had been subjected to domestic violence and abuse in the previous year[iii].

(Continues)

After trauma, the brain can be triggered by something that would barely register for someone else, interpreting something that for many people would be unthreatening as a serious threat or danger, for example the presence of a man, particularly where not expected.

PTSD/trauma responses happen in a part of the brain called the amygdala. The amygdala detects a threat or perceived threat and can activate a “fight or flight” response. This releases adrenaline, norepinephrine, and glucose into the body, and if the threat continues, cortisol. A part of the prefrontal cortex (an area in the front of the brain that processes emotions and behavioural reactions) assesses the threat and can either calm or reinforce the fight or flight response. People suffering trauma/PTSD have a hyper reactive amygdala and a less effective calming prefrontal cortex reaction. The brain becomes overwhelmed by the trauma (pre-frontal cortex shutdown) leading to disorientation and confusion as the higher brain functions of reasoning and language are disrupted. Thinking and reasoning can be drowned out by feeling and being. Prolonged stress can lead to permanent change in the prefrontal cortex.

(Continues)

A trauma-informed safe space creates space for action and recovery from violence and abuse and places the woman victim-survivor in control and in the centre. The trauma response described earlier is the antithesis of a space for action and recovery, so a trauma informed approach is based on understanding the physical, social, and emotional impact of trauma caused by experiencing violence and abuse. A trauma-informed service for women understands the importance of creating an environment – physical and relational – that feels safe to victims-survivors in all the ways I’ve just mentioned. For many women this means excluding men from their recovery space, and yes, this includes those who don’t identify as men. Their behaviour, the likelihood that they themselves may be abusive, is not relevant. If it is not women-only, it is not trauma informed for women who have been subjected to men’s violence.

We know that at least 80% of males who hold a gender recognition certificate retain their penis, but anyway, in almost every case, we don’t need to know what’s in their pants to know they are a man. Women experiencing trauma after violence and abuse will, like most of us – almost always instantly read someone who might be the most kind and gentle trans identified male in the world – as male; and they may experience a debilitating trauma response as a result. It’s not their fault, it’s not a choice and it’s not something they can be educated out of. It’s not hate. It’s not bigotry. It’s not transphobia. It is an impact of abuse and they need space, support and sometimes therapy – not increased confrontation with a trauma inducing trigger; not nowhere to go that offers a woman-only space.

To properly heal from trauma, in particular that caused by sexual violence, a course of counselling/therapy from a counsellor/therapist specially trained to deal with trauma/PTSD from sexual or domestic violence and abuse is often needed. Unfortunately, far too few women are offered this opportunity. Specialist women-led women-only organisations supporting victim-survivors of men’s violence are rarely funded to the extent that we can meet the levels of need that exist. All too often we’re contracted to do what commissioners value, this isn’t always what women want and need.

Women should not need to justify our desire for or the benefits of women-only space on the basis of violence perpetrated upon us or our sisters but we should recognise that some women need or benefit from it more than others. Not all women who are subjected to men’s violence and abuse will develop a trauma response. Not all women will be subjected to men’s violence and abuse, though globally one in three are at some point during our lifetime. Not all women who have been abused by men want women-only spaces but should they then take away the right of that space from those who do?

Of course, women who experience trauma/PTSD as a result of men’s violence are required to function in a world where men are present and for the most part, do. But women-only spaces in Rape Crisis Centres, refuges, women’s centres or women-only buildings or events, etc are spaces where women are not required to make all the mental self-adjustments to function in the presence of men. Women survivors and feminists (many of us both) created these spaces because we know how important this is. Somewhere we can function and feel OK, safe, maybe even relaxed and with our defences down and our vigilance switch turned low. Women who have been subjected to men’s violence deserve this down time, this head space. Women-only space for women who have been subjected to men’s violence and abuse is something that must be protected by those of us who don’t need it, for those of us who do.

Continues: kareningalasmith.com/2020/07/08/trauma-informed-services-for-women-subjected-to-mens-violence-must-be-single-sex-services/

NiceGerbil · 28/05/2021 22:29

' the law in general doesn't treat treat trans men as female and trans women as male'

The idea of a transman especially one who has not changed appearance etc having to access help alongside men makes me really uncomfortable. Well but just uncomfortable but quite worried.

I suppose it's intolerant to feel that way but I can't help it.

It's my own prejudice I suppose to know that female people are vulnerable to male people and that male people are way more violent and prone to sex offending.

statsgeek1 · 28/05/2021 22:30

@NiceGerbil

And stats why don't you support the idea of well funded orgs fighting to increase provision and also support new specific services for the groups they represent?

One size does not fit all, and the more support focussed on the specific challenges and risks to different communities are vital.

I do support the idea and wish Posie lots of luck. i just don't think that she will find the case she is looking for. If she supports lots of vulnerable women in the process though that is a win win all around.
NiceGerbil · 28/05/2021 22:31

'I understand that, but the presence of a trans man is far more likely to worry women in a controlled refuge'

Bollocks. Utter rubbish.

The idea a trans man must go on with the men is horrifying.

A small price to pay I guess to get things reorganised along gender lines rather than sex.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/05/2021 22:33

I do support the idea and wish Posie lots of luck. i just don't think that she will find the case she is looking for. If she supports lots of vulnerable women in the process though that is a win win all around.

I don't think she is looking for a case. We do not want a case. We want to provide resources to the vulnerable women, like those on this VERY THREAD, whose needs are not met now.

statsgeek1 · 28/05/2021 22:33

@kindofcoping

A lot of women-only refuges are closing because contracts are going to organisations like Housing Associations who say they can run it more cheaply. This is the biggest threat to women's refuges.
I would suggest the biggest threat to women and trans peoples safety is the Tory party. Trans people are not responsible for the cuts in funding women's refuges over the last 11 years. Of course, you could place your trust in Liz Truss and Boris Johnson to rectify that. Rather you than me. Good luck.
statsgeek1 · 28/05/2021 22:36

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I do support the idea and wish Posie lots of luck. i just don't think that she will find the case she is looking for. If she supports lots of vulnerable women in the process though that is a win win all around.

I don't think she is looking for a case. We do not want a case. We want to provide resources to the vulnerable women, like those on this VERY THREAD, whose needs are not met now.

I''m pleased to hear that, I'm just sad to see it's not raising funding at the same speed as Mays's attempt to be rude to her potential trans colleagues without consequence.

Sometimes i kind of lose my faith in humanity.

kindofcoping · 28/05/2021 22:39

@statsgeek1 I agree the Tory party is the biggest threat.

nosafeguardingadults · 28/05/2021 22:41

I had trauma from violent women as well as violent men. From my mother. It's trauma trigger to share with anyone male or female. I need dignity and privacy of own safe space if ever had chance of recovery. Sorry to post as don't want to upset people but the solution for all of this would be no shared spaces so everyone gets safe support. I don't think I'll ever have my own safe space but I know I'm not the only woman who needs that and it's what everyone wants I think even without being through violence but after so long of being on edge all time in fear I wish I could explain how having safe private space where closed door and knew definitely no one would invade that space. That would mean everything.

BattyOrange · 28/05/2021 22:42

The trouble with this argument is, is that victims don't generally approach refuges directly. People are generally referred via social services, the police or medical staff.

In my experience self referrals constituted 80% of requests for space with 20% coming from third parties.

A risk assessment will establish that if a victim is terrified of trans women she is highly unlikely to be placed in a refuge where a trans woman may reside.

In my experience, questioning a woman during her initial risk assessment about her feelings with regard to sharing her living space with a trans woman or having a trans woman in the staff group who will be supporting her absolutely never happens. Can you imagine if it did! Asking a woman who's in fear for her life and fleeing an emergency situation:
"Are you ok with a trans woman in the refuge?"
"Are you ok with traveller women in the refuge?"
"Are you ok with Jewish women in the refuge?"
"Are you ok with Muslim women in the refuge?"
"Are you ok with alcohol dependent women in the refuge?"
"Are you ok with women with mental health support needs in the refuge?"
"Are you ok with prostituted women in the refuge?"
Etc. etc. - the list would be endless....
The risk assessment that's conducted focusses solely on the woman's safety requirements, any complex needs and the ability of the service to support her. At this point, women are in an emergency situation - they certainly wouldn't be asked if they're "terrified" of trans women.

Of course if you want that particular vulnerable trans woman to be removed as a result you'd have to state a good case.

Probably best all round if an established, well funded trans organisation worked to set up refuge services specifically for trans women then. A new direction for Stonewall perhaps...

The idea that Posie's long term aim for this venture is to force a test case is, frankly, laughable.

SpringCrocus · 28/05/2021 22:42

I've had detailed exchanges with Posie about various issues. I think she's genuine and absolutely focused on Standing For Women. The XX chromosome, cunty type of Woman.

NiceGerbil · 28/05/2021 22:43

What about in Australia stats?

We know about the UK and tbh I'm not that interested in USA although accept they're important.

What's the situation for the aboriginal women? Is this a hot topic? Are the DV stats improving? Are there any current initiatives around this?

You've got a valuable insight and one we almost certainly hardly get on MN.

You've spoken v passionatly about the UK, what's going on in aus, and with the indigenous women in particular?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/05/2021 22:45

nosafeguardingadults

Dear heart, what you're saying is not upsetting. When I lived in shelter accommodation, having a door of my own was so important. I understand. I'm sure most of us do.

Cleanandpress · 28/05/2021 22:46

You didn't offend me at all @nosafeguardingadults.
Two of my brothers have had a long physical hard life in the building trade and have actually survived in the matey life of pub and boozing together, I don't judge at all. In your 50s and 60s your body falls apart if you have lived that life. We can all like a drink though, life is for living.
One brother can be nasty to women and sadly the women in his life are not able to support themselves. I despair at how hard and how long it is for women to not have to depend on a man for a home and security. Still in 2020. This is the story of many of the women in my life.

I might going to talk to Posie about "after" refuge services and how I can help. She may well be reading this. That might be out of scope for her and I fully don't plan on diverting interest. I am old and kids have moved on now so have some spare time. I am really going to put my thinking cap on.

If anyone wants to join me in thinking let's start a thread. We can have a side thread for Jean et al to come and shout at us about massive face slapping. What larfs.

I'm serious though and libfems can xxxx xx xxxx xxxx.

SpringCrocus · 28/05/2021 22:46

And yes, I've dug quite deep, for Posie

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/05/2021 22:50

I understand that, but the presence of a trans man is far more likely to worry women in a controlled refuge. Of course you could suggest just banning all trans people just in case.

I suspect that would then need the law to suggest trans people in general are a danger or just make people uncomfortable. I'm not quite sure western Europe wants to return to those dark days.

No one suggested "banning all trans people", that's your overactive imagination.

Datun · 28/05/2021 22:52

I understand that, but the presence of a trans man is far more likely to worry women in a controlled refuge. Of course you could suggest just banning all trans people just in case.

No stats. Almost all women requiring a refuge want to recover away from males.

The answer is no.

Hence Posie's crowdfunder.

No.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/05/2021 22:54

There are some examples written into the EA guidance if it helps.

Yes, as I pointed out. So don't try to patronise women who understand what it says perfectly well.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/05/2021 22:56

Apropos of nothing, I am puzzled that "among women aged 18-24, 86% said they had been sexually harassed in public spaces, while just 3% did not recall ever having experienced sexually harassing behaviour. The remaining 11% chose not to answer the question", according to data collected and published this year.

Given that we can't see each other's chromosomes, how on earth do the men doing the sexual harassing know whom to target? It's a mystery...

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

Cleanandpress · 28/05/2021 22:59

For that reason it is for the particular service provider to use on a case by case basis or else we are heading back to water fountains for x and water fountains for y etc...

I am not letting this nasty analogy go by @statsgeek1

Justify this statement to women, to the women on this thread asking for safe space.

Just take us through how this an acceptable thing to say to women?

Datun · 28/05/2021 23:01

It just makes sense, in reality you can't see chromosomes or sex organs in most cases, even in a changing room

Gosh, yes, you're quite right. All those years when I was dating, I had to rip everyone's clothes off before I could decide who to flirt with.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/05/2021 23:02

It's a completely inaccurate and inappropriate and unoriginal analogy. Women are not the white power holders here.

NiceGerbil · 28/05/2021 23:06

Stats why don't you tell us about your country and what's going on there?

The problems for people who share your background are huge. I would really like to learn more. What's happening in aus around this? We're British, you're Australian. USA things are irrelevant. What's the situation in aus?