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“ Stonewall should stay out of trans rights war” - Times/Matthew Paris

83 replies

ChoosandChipsandSealingWax · 22/05/2021 01:32

The organisation I helped found has lost its way since winning gay equality and is mired in an issue that isn’t its concern

Matthew Parris
Saturday May 22 2021, 12.01am, The Times

Anyone got a share token?? SUCH a shame he wrote that recent article on travellers, as that will tarnish this, unfortunately.

OP posts:
howard97A · 22/05/2021 02:30

SUCH a shame he wrote that recent article on travellers, as that will tarnish this, unfortunately.

I think many – perhaps most – will agree with him.

endofthelinefinally · 22/05/2021 05:31

It is interesting how the comments on some articles are published promptly and yet others, on similar topics, are heavily censored and do not appear for several hours.

Ozgirl75 · 22/05/2021 05:37

I was just coming on here to post this article. It’s so great to hear sensible voices coming out and speaking.

noneedtoexpelme · 22/05/2021 05:42

Yes, sunlight.

Tibtom · 22/05/2021 06:51

The one thing that links gays and lesbians with trans people is empathy with anyone excluded, oppressed, marginalised or rejected.

No I don't think trans people do that. Some might but as a collective campaign they are blinkered to oppression of others other than where it can be used as leverage for thenselves ('black trans lives matter')

He gets so far but fails to see it. Stonewall has moved on and isn't just involving itself in the trans war - it is the trans war. It no longer cares about homosexuality other than as a cloak to wrap itself in whilst denying it exists.

Igneococcus · 22/05/2021 07:06

It feels like another one of those articles/comments where you'll get more from reading the comments than the original piece.
He is very careful not to write anything that could be interpreted as taking a side.

highame · 22/05/2021 07:15

Parris usually likes to create a bit of tension but he's written lots of GC stuff in the past. I think he's clear that in this column he asks what Stonewall should have done and why on earth it's got where it is. Do like him, controversy is not something he avoids (as in travellers)

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 22/05/2021 07:19

He gets so far but fails to see it. Stonewall has moved on and isn't just involving itself in the trans war - it is the trans war. It no longer cares about homosexuality other than as a cloak to wrap itself in whilst denying it exists

That’s being spelled out pretty clearly in the comments though.

FindTheTruth · 22/05/2021 07:25

Stonewall should have stood clear. Now it seems to have dived into the judicial issue of whether would-be trans children can consent to chemical or surgical intervention. This is not something on which gays, lesbians or bisexuals can speak with greater authority than any other citizen. I repeat: it has nothing to do with us.

except.... many children referred to GIDs are same sex attracted

FindTheTruth · 22/05/2021 07:27

[Stonewall] no longer cares about homosexuality other than as a cloak to wrap itself in whilst denying it exists

and the proportion of public money given to Stonewall for LGB is a misuse of taxpayers money

FindTheTruth · 22/05/2021 07:36

some really good comments answering this article:

1 - Stonewall's "Diversity Champions" programme seems to have taken on a mantle of authority that nobody voted for it to have.

2 - We are not the same. We are happy in the bodies we are in. We just happen to like people of the same sex. LGB is about sexuality. Trans is about gender. Apologies for spelling that out but so many people who are neither seem to have lots to say about the subject

MiladyBerserko · 22/05/2021 07:36

There needs to be Public Enquiry into the funding and activities of Stonewall.

There is letter on this on Sex Matters, please support it. See Twitter or Google it.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/05/2021 07:37

Pleased to see this - it's not a brilliant article as detailed above but the comments below are an education and it's important that he's finally spoken out.

FindTheTruth · 22/05/2021 07:40

He says it has nothing to do with us but pre lesbians and pre gay children are being conditioned and not allowed to be who they are and experimented on with trans the gay away,

NecessaryScene1 · 22/05/2021 08:00

Some of the most passionate voices on this are the gay men and women who realise it could have been them.

Pre-gay children like they were are being sacrificed to the counterfactual "if only I could have transitioned sooner" fantasies of straight adult males.

Clearly Parris hasn't fully grasped this yet - maybe he hasn't seen the Newsnight reports, or the David Bell interviews. But it seems he might be about to.

(Another good recent podcast on the subject, featuring Angus Fox, gay author of Quillette's recent series, and GC activist transwoman Corinna Cohn: When Sons Become Daughters: Part One).

Leafstamp · 22/05/2021 08:02

@Igneococcus

It feels like another one of those articles/comments where you'll get more from reading the comments than the original piece. He is very careful not to write anything that could be interpreted as taking a side.
It is so reassuring and pleasing to see so many people making the same types of comments made on this board. I accept there may be a cross over of the two populations but it’s great to see that it’s not just women noticing the problem with Stonewall and TRAs.
FindTheTruth · 22/05/2021 08:05

comments on the article

3 - they need to stop shouting at us and telling us what to think. And they need to realise that they didn't invent non-conformity.

4 - It's not just like the '80s: gays and lesbians wanted parity with heterosexual people. Trans identifying males (as represented by Stonewall) want extra rights: women's rights.

Ikeameatballs · 22/05/2021 08:15

I’m really pleased to read this. Yes he could be stronger on the point regarding gayness being “transed away” and the impact of that on gay young people but it’s a clear and concise read and the comments are excellent.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 22/05/2021 08:27

Some really excellent comments on that article.

ElephantsNest · 22/05/2021 08:29

Good article, and I see another reason that T doesn’t fit with LGB. LGB is about PRIDE in your sexuality and the way in which you were born. T in contrast often seems to be about the opposite of pride in the way you were born and surrounded by so much shame that bodies are modified.

DaisiesandButtercups · 22/05/2021 08:35

I enjoyed reading the comments by JosephineMarch, a slight name change but it seems to be the same voice. I am pleased to note that she feels that things are improving.

Thank you for the share token.

IvyTwines2 · 22/05/2021 08:41

@Leafstamp 'It is so reassuring and pleasing to see so many people making the same types of comments made on this board. '

It is, but frustrating that the young people who really need to read them won't, because of the paywall. There was a good piece online a year or so ago, 'The Truth is Paywalled but the Lies are Free'. Being free, The Guardian is probably the main/only UK 'newspaper' read by younger readers.

LizzieSiddal · 22/05/2021 09:24

I agree that it’s a shame it’s behind a paywall but very glad it has been written.

The BBC have been found out this week, it’s time Stonewall was also brought to account.

teawamutu · 22/05/2021 09:25

Perhaps the truth is that, after success in our great 20th-century drive for equality, Stonewall was left with bricks and mortar, an admirable staff, a CEO and a fund-raising team and, unconsciously, craved another big, newsworthy cause. Well, sometimes a big army with only small battles to fight does best simply to scale back.

We've said this here, lots of time, but it's good to see it from a founder.