“ Stonewall should stay out of trans rights war” - Times/Matthew Paris

[ChoosandChipsandSealingWax]

The organisation I helped found has lost its way since winning gay equality and is mired in an issue that isn’t its concern

Matthew Parris
Saturday May 22 2021, 12.01am, The Times

Anyone got a share token?? SUCH a shame he wrote that recent article on travellers, as that will tarnish this, unfortunately.

... Although on reflection i think "unconsciously" is possibly over-charitable.

I think he gets the wider implications but doesn’t want to comment on them or the whole article will be torn apart by TRA.

He understands the original purpose of Stonewall and is very well positioned to say they have lost their way.

A wonderful article!

I think he gets the wider implications but doesn’t want to comment on them or the whole article will be torn apart by TRA.

I agree. I am happy that a range of voices are calling this out. Stonewall is the key.

Those comments made me cry. I do feel the tide is turning, and we're going to win a war that most people don't even know about.

[quote IvyTwines2]@Leafstamp 'It is so reassuring and pleasing to see so many people making the same types of comments made on this board. '

It is, but frustrating that the young people who really need to read them won't, because of the paywall. There was a good piece online a year or so ago, 'The Truth is Paywalled but the Lies are Free'. Being free, The Guardian is probably the main/only UK 'newspaper' read by younger readers.[/quote]
Good point.

I hope, though, that common sense and biological reality will prevail. Presumably Times readers will discuss their views with friends and family and the message will get through.

I don’t always feel this hopeful but this last week or so has article after article that shows up the problems that can come with trans ideology.

A heartfelt article. Being heterosexual I obviously can’t fully comprehend the nature of the aggression and opprobrium gay men and lesbians have endured over the decades. I’m emotionally evolved enough to embrace ‘otherness’ in a way I wasn’t twenty years ago. I have very close gay and lesbian friends. I’m utterly appalled at the historical treatment of homosexuals. I ought to be similarly chastened by the plight of trans individuals. I very possibly will be at some point, however not whilst I perceive their agenda to be even remotely in conflict with feminist ideologies. Women are by far and away the most subjugated group in the history of human civilisation. They have only recently reached a level of comparative equality in western civilisations, after millennia of mistreatment and deprivation. That a tiny number of biologically born males who choose to identify as women are now aggressively asserting their primacy and right to access female only spaces, leaves me cold. Women have by now surely earned the right to their own spaces. The lack of consideration towards women shown by the trans lobby is repellent to me. It feels like typically aggressive male behaviour.

Like this comment very much!

@Tibtom

The one thing that links gays and lesbians with trans people is empathy with anyone excluded, oppressed, marginalised or rejected.

No I don't think trans people do that. Some might but as a collective campaign they are blinkered to oppression of others other than where it can be used as leverage for thenselves ('black trans lives matter')

He gets so far but fails to see it. Stonewall has moved on and isn't just involving itself in the trans war - it is the trans war. It no longer cares about homosexuality other than as a cloak to wrap itself in whilst denying it exists.

Some might but as a collective campaign they are blinkered to oppression of others other than where it can be used as leverage for thenselves

Ah yes, being photographed suppporting Period Poverty charities comes to mind.

I really don't want to agree with him after his racist rant the other week.

I've just posted a very innocuous comment suggesting readers search out #DontSubmitToStonewall for more information about the diversity champions programme. Deleted!

Have you noticed, the statement TWAT has been around for 3 years , yet it's still something woman refuse to accept?
During lockdown they seem to have dropped it as a shouting point, because it is so easy to disprove.
Maybe we need a counter claim that is true, DNAF. DNA female...

The vast majority of those comments are highly critical of Stonewall and of Gender Ideology.

Good to see.

It's so good to see all those really articulate and considered comments out in the public (albeit paywalled) domain, as a calm counterbalance to all the accusations of 'spreading hate' and the bigotry narrative that has been effective in shutting down discussion for so long.

It gives me hope that Twitter, the so-called 'public square' for discussion, will soon become as empty and unappealing as a 1960s shopping precinct.

You can c&p the sharetoken link elsewhere, I think.

A while ago I commented that Parris hadn't yet quite seen the light, but was becoming aware of the darkness - he seems at least to be a bit further along now.

I take it back. Success. So many comments it's impossible to keep up. Derail but has the excellent Jo March changed her posting name to Josephine March?

More sunlight but as you can see from the excerpt below, Parris is still talking about a historic version of trans that hasn't been the case for years:

There’s something perversely 20th-century about linking gays to trans. Gay men do not want to be women. We like being men. I doubt that being a lesbian is about not wanting to be a woman. Our issues have nothing to do with identification or changing our bodies: we know what we are and nobody disputes it. Most gay men would strongly resist the suggestion we’re boys who want to be girls. I can’t think of anything I’d like less. The whole history of the gay liberation movement is inseparable from what people do rather than what they are.

One reason why the gender identity ideology is now so contentious is because many (the majority of?) transwomen also have no interest in changing their bodies. They are content with them as they are. What they want is validation of their feminine gender identity in the form of receiving an all-areas pass and never hearing the word "no" from a woman.

I wonder whether Parris isn't aware of the current issues or is, but uses the antiquated situation to provide a simpler context within which to put forward his views. As we know, when you try to explain what's going on in factual terms providing enough information for a reader to understand, in no time at all you're on your way to writing a book.

From reading a comment Parris has made to Jo Phoenix (she's commented and her posts are now at the top of the comments) he was scared of speaking out because it's all so "delicate".

I do think that there's a massive change happening and am heartened by so many thoughtful comments on there.

@FannyCann

I've just posted a very innocuous comment suggesting readers search out #DontSubmitToStonewall for more information about the diversity champions programme. Deleted!

I had several deleted under the story about Essex University's apology to 2 female academics for no-platforming them.

Perfectly sensible and innocuous comments too

@MiladyBerserko

The vast majority of those comments are highly critical of Stonewall and of Gender Ideology.

Good to see.

I have been making GC comments on Times articles for about 6 years (though I'm not Jo March or Silver Lady - who are both awesome).

I have seen a sea change in the reaction to my comments. At first, I got a mixture of incredulity - people flatly refused to believe what was happening - and of "Well, you feminists brought this on yourselves". That has totally changed. Times commentators now take the threat to women's rights very seriously. GC articles get 100s of comments that are overwhelmingly supportive.

It's so heartening to see that GC journalists and commentators can change views. I think we are still a long way from the tide turning, tbh, but we are making progress. It's true that the Times is not read by the young and woke, but it is read by people in power.

I suspect the BBC is also helping turn the tide with their relentless trans articles. I suspect they are no longer helping the cause as much as the BBC think they are.

Sounds like this dude needs a history lesson about the LGBT community. Rather ironic really. Bigotry will not divide true LGBT+ solidarity. Respect, Equality and Love wins over hate - every time.

‘This dude’ IS an important part of LGB history - he was one of the original founders of Stonewall. Didn’t you read the article?

Yeah Mishy. As one of the fourteen founders of Stonewall, it seems he has absolutely no idea about Stonewall or LGB history.

Absolutely none at all . I am sure YOU can tell him what Stonewall was formed for and correct his thinking though.