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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

More celebrities coming out as non-binary

154 replies

NinaMimi · 19/05/2021 10:04

I saw this on bbc: www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-57169541

I’m not familiar with Demi but notice every week the bbc is reporting on some young celeb and their special lgbtq status.

I suspect it’ll have an influence on young people and maybe it’ll peak and people will get bored of it.

I remember 10+ years ago it was really common and cool to come out as bisexual. Though now there’s a whole array of statuses you can choose from.

OP posts:
NinaMimi · 21/05/2021 09:05

*She was praised by senior management bringing their whole self to work. Sigh.

(That's a concept that can get in the sea too. It's clear from my employer's stonewall affiliation my whole terfy self is unwelcome. And they don't pay me for my whole self*

I used to work at a place that would talk about that. It’s such nonsense and not everyone wants to share their private life with work nor would they be welcome. Also who acts in work like they do in their private life?

OP posts:
NinaMimi · 21/05/2021 09:18

The whole concept that if you don’t go along with my belief system you’re damaging my mental health is in itself promoting bad mental health. It’s like the those religious people who have to convince people that their religion is the one true one and they get mad if you don’t along with it. Granted most religious people aren’t like that. But if you are that fanatical it’s not a good mental state to be in as you’re going to be anguished that people aren’t following your beliefs.

Also I find the concept that people don’t feel either male or female bizarre. It’s like those people who say they don’t feel human but feel like cats and get surgery to have pointy ears. What’s more bizarre is one is seen as odd and the other is accepted. I think less due to critical thought and more because certain groups like Stonewall have power and what they say on such issues has already been deemed the right way.

Race is a less stable a concept than sex. So why can people not feel the sex they are but can’t identify out of race? I’ve never heard an explanation for that.

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 21/05/2021 09:18

Even when famous people - like Izzard - have expressed their variability and/or a relaxed attitude towards pronouns used in their absence, there exists a group of people who are determined to seek out mental health injury from other people “misgendering” such famous people, not even themselves. It’s a strange mindset.

But these people only seem to be impacted mentally when people they don’t like “misgender”. They don’t seem upset when Mermaids do it.

SunsetBeetch · 21/05/2021 09:23

[quote MondayYogurt]Demi Lovato is trying to distract from her recent froyo incident.

Demi Lovato Addresses Backlash to Her Comments About 'Triggering' Visit to Frozen Yogurt Shop

[[https://people.com/health/demi-lovato-addresses-backlash-about-triggering-visit-frozen-yogurt-shop/]][/quote]
And her nonapology afterwards.

(Very apposite username you've got Smile )

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 21/05/2021 09:35

Gaslighting is really bad for MY mental health, which is exactly what this is. My mental health is equally important as DL's so I'm going to do what is right FOR ME

This, with bells on. I have survived more than one abusive relationship and experienced a lot of gaslighting. I won't be forced to lie about a person's sex because a) having to lie harms ME and b) I don't believe in gender ideology.

PaleGreenGhost · 21/05/2021 09:45

A friend of a friend has come out as "non binary femme" .

Literally nothing has changed about this female individual except the requirement for other people to use they /them pronouns in they's absence.

That is basically saying "I'm a woman, but definitely not one of you lame cis women who love all the abuse, I'm a different, individual, cool woman BUT I STILL BELIEVE IN GENDER ID DON'T CANCEL ME OH POWERFUL ONES"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/05/2021 09:49

This, with bells on. I have survived more than one abusive relationship and experienced a lot of gaslighting. I won't be forced to lie about a person's sex because a) having to lie harms ME and b) I don't believe in gender ideology.

Same here, exactly.

quiteathome · 21/05/2021 09:58

What the hell is a non-binary femme?

Dogoodfeelgood · 21/05/2021 10:04

Non-binary seems to be an improvement on identifying with gender stereotypes though surely? Non-binary at least seems like a step in a positive direction of gender being a construct, anyone who wants to step away from this construct has my understanding. The part that raises red flags for me is identifying with a different gender as I can’t help but wonder what they’re identifying with and whether that is just cementing harmful gender stereotypes further.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/05/2021 10:06

Non-binary seems to be an improvement on identifying with gender stereotypes though surely?

For some maybe. Lots of them appear to think they don't actually have a biological sex, or that it isn't ever something which should be acknowledged for anyone.

PaleGreenGhost · 21/05/2021 10:56

@Dogoodfeelgood

Non-binary seems to be an improvement on identifying with gender stereotypes though surely? Non-binary at least seems like a step in a positive direction of gender being a construct, anyone who wants to step away from this construct has my understanding. The part that raises red flags for me is identifying with a different gender as I can’t help but wonder what they’re identifying with and whether that is just cementing harmful gender stereotypes further.
Well yeah...Except it is like saying "gender stereotypes are harmful and regressive TO ME ONLY. All you cis women clearly love them and terfs are evil".

Whereas evil terfs say "gender stereotypes are harmful and regressive TO EVERYONE."

baaaaal · 21/05/2021 11:26

Why do people care if there are some individuals who don't wish to identify as female or male?

On a personal level it doesn't actually affect anyone. I don't care that a person on the other side of the world doesn't wish to identify as male or female.

But it starts to affect "me" when I need to change my language. Now this person, who I have never met, has effectively taken up a part of my 'memory' because if anyone ever brings them up (I have a daughter, not impossible) I need to remember to refer to them as them.

What if that was 12 people I know, 40 people at work, and 300 celebrities? I'm expected to be conscious of all of that at all times. You could say, lets just start referring to everyone as "they/them".

But they/them is a plural? I'm a novelist and use he/she ALL THE TIME. Names are unnecessarily wordy. "Alison was sitting in Alison's garden with Derek. Alison didn't know what Alison would like to have for dinner. Alison asked Derek what Derek would like."

You can't use "they" in any case because in all cases I am talking about a he or a she. One person. I need the word "they" because "they" as a plural could have been sitting in "their" garden.

And that is a purely practical reason which doesn't touch on what society would look like if we just erased the concept of boys and girls overnight.

Anyone remember the Always #runlikeagirl campaign? How powerful was that? Both of my daughters have watched that, it's such an important piece of media.

And that wouldn't exist. Would never have been created. But that isn't because the need for that clip to be created had been erased. The need would still be there, we just couldn't do anything to highlight it or argue/ campaign against it or raise awareness/ educate on it.

When everyone is a "parent" how do we discuss needs of mothers? Of fathers?

Theoretically it would be great if we "erased" gender. I actually think that is what #runlikeagirl was trying to do - erase the concept and negative stereotypes of running like a girl.

Just like some could argue it would be great if we "erased" the concept of race. "I don't see colour".... "I am race-less". I'm not racist because I don't see colour. But we can't do that. It's incredibly harmful, and there are many articles written explaining why better than I can.

But essentially: A colourblind society is just as damaging as a racist one, because a colourblind society can never be truly colourblind. So it's essentially a racist one where racism "does not exist" and therefore can never be spoken about, or fixed.

A "colourblind" society and a "genderless" society may be possible, but only after you have fixed the system and the inequalities, and everyone agrees to be genderless and colourless, and genderblind and colourblind. Will that ever happen? Not in my lifetime. And we still have daughters and sons to raise in while we're waiting.

EyesOpening · 21/05/2021 11:38

@PaleGreenGhost

A friend of a friend has come out as "non binary femme" .

Literally nothing has changed about this female individual except the requirement for other people to use they /them pronouns in they's absence.

That is basically saying "I'm a woman, but definitely not one of you lame cis women who love all the abuse, I'm a different, individual, cool woman BUT I STILL BELIEVE IN GENDER ID DON'T CANCEL ME OH POWERFUL ONES"

This is what I don’t understand, on a practical level, what is going to change for that person?
DialSquare · 21/05/2021 11:45

Great post baaaaal

WarriorN · 21/05/2021 11:52

Why do people care if there are some individuals who don't wish to identify as female or male?
Because the trend if you are female is to get a mastectomy as apparently the default is a male aesthetic.

Which is more like a child aesthetic if you're a grown woman.

Top surgery scars are the latest version of a tattoo trend.

www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2019/05/234065/lachlan-watson-top-surgery-scar-interview

WarriorN · 21/05/2021 11:53

My hygiene was abysmal when I was a trans guy because I thought guys didn’t wash their faces — but I like washing my face, I like having clear skin. Is it a female thing to want to feel comfortable in your own skin? Noticing that cage I was putting myself in helped me get to the place where I am now: I'm non-binary. I don't feel like those things should affect me. I don't want to steal from myself anymore for the sake of upholding this image.

It's still sexist tripe.

WarriorN · 21/05/2021 11:58

Also talks about loving scars.

Thai sort of non binary is a different form of self harm.

I've also noticed young women who like to dress up and wear make up seem to have to do it under the guise of being queer and femme. And days they're not they're being queer and masc.

It's impossible to be non binary as any fashion indicators is either stereotypically male or female. So females must make a physical change.

Ergo, continued women hating/ misogyny.

BraveBananaBadge · 21/05/2021 12:48

@aliasundercover

Demi goes by they/them pronouns

Demi doesn't get to choose the words I use. If Demi asked politely I might go along with the request, but inside I'd still be going "she really" so what's the point?

Exactly this.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/05/2021 13:10

But essentially: A colourblind society is just as damaging as a racist one, because a colourblind society can never be truly colourblind. So it's essentially a racist one where racism "does not exist" and therefore can never be spoken about, or fixed.

A "colourblind" society and a "genderless" society may be possible, but only after you have fixed the system and the inequalities, and everyone agrees to be genderless and colourless, and genderblind and colourblind. Will that ever happen? Not in my lifetime. And we still have daughters and sons to raise in while we're waiting.

Yes! Your whole post was great, but particularly this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/05/2021 13:15

There is also a developing trend towards surgery to remove either your male or female sex characteristics to make you "sexless"

<span class="italic">Nullification: The removal of genital structures with preservation of the urethra to allow for voiding of urine.</span>

www.mymarinhealth.org/programs-services/surgery-procedures/surgical-specialties/gender-affirmation-surgery/nonbinary-gender-affirming-surgery/

stonecat · 21/05/2021 13:34

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MaudTheInvincible · 21/05/2021 13:39

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is also a developing trend towards surgery to remove either your male or female sex characteristics to make you "sexless"
<span class="italic">Nullification: The removal of genital structures with preservation of the urethra to allow for voiding of urine.</span>

www.mymarinhealth.org/programs-services/surgery-procedures/surgical-specialties/gender-affirmation-surgery/nonbinary-gender-affirming-surgery/

How does that work with vaginas then, or is a male-only binary procedure?

stonecat · 21/05/2021 13:41

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