Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

You've nailed it with that post Fernlake.
Back then I felt able to discuss these things with a friend who is now trans. They are very insightful on loads of feminist issues but have brushed off so many things as marginal, edge cases, unlikely to happen...
I think a lot of people who privately have niggles about TWAW just stay quiet rather than risk saying the wrong thing.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

I was told off by Dittany. I learned a lesson about radical feminism that day a decade ago :)

Ha - me too! About that time I came onto this board talking about 'cis privilege'. That went as well as can be expected.

OP, we don't need a separate board.

I don't know if the OP is genuine or not. I don't really care. As someone else said, the motivation often isn't relevant, when the results are the same.

Whether she means it because she is simply not quite aware of the impact, or whether she wants to shut women down, doesn't alter what could be the effect of what she is saying.

I very much doubt this proposal has any good intentions, and is simply another attempt to shut women up.

This was me 4 years ago.....
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2864237-Please-could-we-have-a-trans-issues-sub-board-in-feminism

My opinions haven't changed and I gradually stopped posting on the board for a while as a result.
Then I got told I was a TRA when I started a thread a while back
Women are allowed to mourn the old board without having malign intent

Having briefly looked at that thread what it does prove was people were being called far fetched and hysterical for predicting things that have actually happened now.

Yep. It's scary really.

@QuentinBunbury

No, I think this is about not liking posters whose understanding of the oppression of women doesn't line up with the "correct" one. Helpful instance of putting words in my mouth, by a "feminist" who told me yesterday that believing in patriarchy is like believing in gender identity and women shouldn't have to "push in" to mens work but instead be happy staying at home.

I'm not being exclusionary, i just appreciated it when the board was people who shared a common interest, which as cardinal says, was ending oppression of women. I feel quite alone IRL as not many people identify as feminist, so this board was "my place" and important to me.

Now the common interest is "woman = adult human female". Agree that defining women is fundamental to all other feminism but it is a change in focus for the board and I miss the old board.

My opinion doesn't mean I'm "exclusionary" or "don't like people"

Basically what I said then - you think feminism is a particular political position, a particular set of conclusions about women's oppression and what to do with them, a particular set of analytic conventions and any women who doesn't think that way doesn't count.

It's basically the same CT stuff that gender ideology is based on, just about women, including the idea that non-adherence to the orthodoxy makes views invalid or regressive.

CT stuff eh?

@Fernlake

I don't know if the OP is genuine or not. I don't really care. As someone else said, the motivation often isn't relevant, when the results are the same.

Whether she means it because she is simply not quite aware of the impact, or whether she wants to shut women down, doesn't alter what could be the effect of what she is saying.

ODFOD I don’t want to shut anyone down, or up for that matter. If only I did have some kind of evil backers funding me to post on MN instead of doing it in my lunch break. I do understand the issues - for me and it seems for other posters here it’s not the be all and end all of feminism at the moment. For most here it is, I can see that. It’s kind of unfortunate this is about GC issue because if it was about any one issue (eg abortion rights) I’d feel the same. But it’s clear and not surprising that most feminism chat posters do want to keep this the central issue of the board, so clearly the answer to my question is no.

I think a separate board would get too complicated to police.

What if you are celebrating in the 'main' board the win of a female cyclist or other sportswoman and someone starts talking about trans women in it? Is just mentioning the word "trans" anywhere in the thread enough to get a thread moved - in which case surely that's fun and games for people who like to cause trouble?

As we don't actually have an agreed (by all) definition of what 'woman' means then surely every mention of the word 'woman' either may or may not include trans women and merely having that question over the meaning would deem it a 'trans' topic?

And vice versa - stuff about, say, the GRA, which is specific to trans people - may have consequences that would fall under the heading of 'other' feminism - pay gap, maternity rights etc.

I just don't think it's possible to very strictly disentangle in a whole lot of cases.
And then the threads would become constant squabbles about what bloody board they should be on!

ODFOD I don’t want to shut anyone down, or up for that matter. If only I did have some kind of evil backers funding me to post on MN instead of doing it in my lunch break. I do understand the issues - for me and it seems for other posters here it’s not the be all and end all of feminism at the moment. For most here it is, I can see that. It’s kind of unfortunate this is about GC issue because if it was about any one issue (eg abortion rights) I’d feel the same. But it’s clear and not surprising that most feminism chat posters do want to keep this the central issue of the board, so clearly the answer to my question is no.

I didn't say you wanted to shut anyone down. I said it doesn't matter if you do or not. Siloing this board off has the same result whether you want to shut women up, or whether you just think it's not that important.

Personally I do think that it's probably the latter. You can easily tell other posters, who support your suggestions, but for the former reason.

And Personally I think you are minimising something which is the biggest threat feminism has ever seen.

Your representation in parliament could, in a heartbeat, be taken by a male, as could your representation in every political party, in women's groups, in the decision-making positions in rape refuges, domestic violence shelters, in student unions, trade unions, in broadcasting, publishing, the lot. And yes, abortion protocols. Not just by a male, but by a male who advocates for sexist stereotypes, or a male who specifically seeks out those positions which give women power.

The very gains that women have fought for, to have these positions where their representation is heard, are the ones being targeted.

It's an attack on the heart of feminism.

And the biggest weapon being used is one of enforced silence.

So it's a no from me.

Also (I think it was this thread), a previous poster mentioned how few people, who identify as the opposite sex, are in these positions. And therefore it's not really a problem.

The BBC, the country's public service broadcaster, funded by taxpayers, employs 400 transgender people.

Four times higher than the general population.

And they don't think it's diverse enough, because not enough lesbians are employed. Funnily enough.

But it’s clear and not surprising that most feminism chat posters do want to keep this the central issue of the board, so clearly the answer to my question is no.

It's not a question of wanting to keep it the central issue on the board. If other posters want to come on here and start threads that are on other issues and the board gets a greater variety of threads, I can't imagine that anyone on here would have a problem with that. It's more a case of not finding it acceptable that people want us to be shunted off to some new board.

So many excellent posts here by Fern and others explaining exactly why it is inevitable that FWR is dominated by this issue. Like others, I would be delighted to come on here and find nothing about it, but that's a way off I fear.

Just from my own experience, I've been on MN for ages for parenting discussion, never went on FWR. It was the gender ideology issue that brought me here via AIBU and active threads, just out of curiosity as I had no idea what was going on. I always just had a vague thought that equality for women was generally improving and frankly it had never crossed my mind that things could go backwards. So that was quite a wake up call!

I've since spent a lot of time reading around this issue on here and elsewhere. In the process I've got much more interested in feminism in general, and posts on here have made me aware of loads of things I wasn't really paying any attention to - like surrogacy, prostitution, FGM which I've then gone off and read up on. That wouldn't have happened if it had been hidden away on some sub-board. I see this board as a place to find what's happening on all aspects of feminism and most importantly what action can be taken.

I find the suggestion that 'feminism' can somehow be detached from the gender ideology juggernaut quite odd as it cuts across everything. I get that the OP might feel tired of seeing it coming up, I do too but ignoring it definitely won't make it go away.

"But it’s clear and not surprising that most feminism chat posters do want to keep this the central issue of the board, so clearly the answer to my question is no."

It's clear and not surprising that those monitoring how many threads are about trans issues and posting about it elsewhere would also want to keep this the central issue on the board too. For different reasons.

@malloo

So many excellent posts here by Fern and others explaining exactly why it is inevitable that FWR is dominated by this issue. Like others, I would be delighted to come on here and find nothing about it, but that's a way off I fear.

Just from my own experience, I've been on MN for ages for parenting discussion, never went on FWR. It was the gender ideology issue that brought me here via AIBU and active threads, just out of curiosity as I had no idea what was going on. I always just had a vague thought that equality for women was generally improving and frankly it had never crossed my mind that things could go backwards. So that was quite a wake up call!

I've since spent a lot of time reading around this issue on here and elsewhere. In the process I've got much more interested in feminism in general, and posts on here have made me aware of loads of things I wasn't really paying any attention to - like surrogacy, prostitution, FGM which I've then gone off and read up on. That wouldn't have happened if it had been hidden away on some sub-board. I see this board as a place to find what's happening on all aspects of feminism and most importantly what action can be taken.

I find the suggestion that 'feminism' can somehow be detached from the gender ideology juggernaut quite odd as it cuts across everything. I get that the OP might feel tired of seeing it coming up, I do too but ignoring it definitely won't make it go away.

Exactly. It's actually waking far more women up to feminism.

Grasping that sexism and misogyny is potentially one of the central threads to so many different things, like for instance, surrogacy, is an eye-opener.

Everyone is born in a patriarchy. And many people don't realise it. But once you do recognise it, there is no unseeing it. And it has it's grubby, sexist fingers rummaging around in far more pies that I ever realised.

These boards aren't just a refuge, they are an education.

What a fantastic earlier post Fernlake.

I also don't want to be shunted off to be seen and not heard so it's a no from me.

And again, there is absolutely nothing stopping folk starting threads on topics that they would prefer to discuss and hopefully finding others that want to contribute.

I'm in agreement with fernlake and malloo above, that even where a thread is about gender ideology, it often leads me into learning more about other issues too. The main reason there are so many threads about this here is cos there's nowhere else to talk about it without getting abuse, being sacked, or being banned etc. Its easy to see which threads are Not about these issues, so everyone can choose which they click on too.

I was just rereading my old thread and barracker posted:
If MN created a trans topic ghetto, it would become the only policed subject on MN which, if referenced outside the trans topic would be leapt upon by people "you can't talk about that here! Back to your ghetto"
I think that's exactly what's happened to the FWR board in the intervening time. I'd like to see trans issues being discussed all over mumsnet and feminism discussion here. Instead of the other way round.

I just want to add to my list of things that it is now become quite acceptable to do to women. I want to add threatening them with rape and violence, slurring them, being violent towards them when they gather together, and insulting them in all manner of ways. However much you think these things are wrong, there doesn't appear to be the slightest sanction for those doing them.

I actually forget how many ways, deemed legitimate, there are now to target women. Including by elected officials, MPs, and even a cabinet minister.

The leader of the opposition can't even define what a fucking woman is.

This is not a side issue. As one of the few very powerful and wealthy women in this country has said, this is not a drill.

@CardinalLolzy

I think a separate board would get too complicated to police.

What if you are celebrating in the 'main' board the win of a female cyclist or other sportswoman and someone starts talking about trans women in it? Is just mentioning the word "trans" anywhere in the thread enough to get a thread moved - in which case surely that's fun and games for people who like to cause trouble?

As we don't actually have an agreed (by all) definition of what 'woman' means then surely every mention of the word 'woman' either may or may not include trans women and merely having that question over the meaning would deem it a 'trans' topic?

And vice versa - stuff about, say, the GRA, which is specific to trans people - may have consequences that would fall under the heading of 'other' feminism - pay gap, maternity rights etc.

I just don't think it's possible to very strictly disentangle in a whole lot of cases.
And then the threads would become constant squabbles about what bloody board they should be on!

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I used to post on a board with a similar issue. One topic that was very existential dominated to some degree, and there was a desire by some to separate out that element of the discussion.

And, I think it was honestly frustrating for them.

Anyway, the topics were split up, but it doesn't really work, just for the reasons you outline.

Quirky irony in people popping by to say they don't use the board anymore because it is single issue. Happily coincidental that they happened to come by today to be able to comment.

@JoodyBlue

Quirky irony in people popping by to say they don't use the board anymore because it is single issue. Happily coincidental that they happened to come by today to be able to comment.

😂😂😂

In fairness, they might just have seen it in active conversations and thought that they agreed with the thread title.

I'd guess there will also be some users who have hidden the section who won't see anything at all.

Joody- yes funny that.