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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

502 replies

TheThermalStair · 16/05/2021 14:12

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

OP posts:
Needanewhat · 17/05/2021 00:38

Yeah I'm with you. I'm GC but it is not the only issue that matters in feminism at the moment (and tbh the way most discussions on this board go are not the way to do the GC movement any favours either).

ErrolTheDragon · 17/05/2021 00:38
  • I do wonder if the regular posters from 5 or 10 years ago are still here now and have all decided that GC stuff is the number one focus

I've been on FWR since it was still FWR. I still participate in, and sometimes start, threads on all sorts of feminist-related issues.
I think some don't generate much discussion because either they're familiar topics or there just isn't much to say on some of them other than 'bloody hell'.
We don't get as many threads started by old fashioned MRA types nowadays, which used to be probably the main source of 'bunfight' long threads.

SmokedDuck · 17/05/2021 00:38

@CardinalLolzy

What should the entry level qualification be for the right to discuss women's issues on the FWR board?

I don't want to speak for Quentin, but generally - to want to end the oppression of women as a class.
I don't think QB was implying you need any qualifications, but the ability to scrutinise and question one's own attitudes and biases/socialisation is important. So, as one example, there is someone who posts on here fairly regularly who posted elsewhere defending a business practice that preys primarily on low-income women but refused to acknowledge this and that it disproportionately affected women. Or those who say they wouldn't employ a woman of childbearing age etc etc (I've seen this!)

No, I think this is about not liking posters whose understanding of the oppression of women doesn't line up with the "correct" one. The same as womn who don't vote the right way or have the right opinions on other topics.
DeRigueurMortis · 17/05/2021 00:48

@stumbledin

I think what is sad about this whole proposition that somehow anti trans non feminims posters have colonised FWR and alienation old timers is exactly the tactic that men use to say you made me do it.

There are very, very few social media platforms where gender critical feminists can post. Gender critical as in early Women's Liberation feminist that gender is a social construct that damages both men and women.

So obviously those who saw, in response to the consultation on the GRA a place where they had the freedom to discuss openly an issue that is being used, by others, to undermine women's rights.

All this talk about MRAs coming here, is just one persons personal perception. When you compare how MRAs are using trans rights to silence and get banned women who want to speak up for women's rights it is laughable.

And lots of us for instance post on the terrible toll of domesstic violence. Some of us have tried to provide practical support and links to women trying to escape DV. It is incredibly arrogant to say that because the OP hasn't notice them they aren't happening.

And again, it is a total failure to recognise what is happening in the real world. Women's refuges are loosing funding because of wanting to implement the legitimate single sex service for women. Going all I'm really the only one who really cares and not being aware of this threat to women's services is just, I was going to say absurd, but is actually frighteningly unaware of what is going on in the women's sector.

And as other's have mentioned up thread, after the murder of Sarah Everard you would thought that women would come together and share ideas about campaigning, etc.. But no, the women who decided to appropriate the slogan Reclaim These Streets than started censoring women who talk about sex being a biological reality. Additionally they refused to say that any money collected in "their" name would go to any women's projects that ae single sex provision.

It isn't GC feminists who are shutting down conversations.

I dont know what planet you have been on, but the world has moved on.

I have been involved in feminism since the days of women's liberation and with what is known as the women's sector, ie women's refuges, rape crisis helpline. Gone are the days when you might do a fundraiser so that children living in refuges could get a holiday over the summer, our lobby a local authority to provide another house because the demand for bed spaces have gone up.

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING that women want to do for themselves and for other women in now constrained and actively undermind by the demand that women MUST accept that trans women are women.

It impacts on funding, it impacts on who gets consulted, it impacts on women have save spaces, it impacts for some women on whether or not they lose their job.

It is pie in the sky to claim you can discuss women's issues without this coming up - and being used against women who want to fight for women's rights and women's right to live without fear of men's violence.

And yet somehow OP twists this round that those pointing out this staggering power that the TWAW lobby has, are the problem. The problem are those who want to silence women's voices. And now OP comes on one of the few places where women can freely discuss this and say it is alienating.

You have the whole of the rest of the internet to discuss issues pretending this threat to women's rights doesn't exist, but you come to the one place where women can talk about their rights and not be bullied into saying they agree that others rights come before women's rights.

How can you not see this when you must be aware of the totally onslaught JKR had. Not just on social media, but in MSM.

And just to add although some on MNHQs rules are really strange (that whole petition thing not being allowed to appear in threads aobut the issue the petition has been set up for Confused ) many thanks to MNHQ for allowing women who are silenced everywhere else to have a forum.

I was going to comment but the above is a good reflection of my POV.

NiceGerbil · 17/05/2021 01:08

I wrote a long post earlier but it went AWOL!

In brief

Been here 15 years ish
Have met dittany irl!
Loads of new posters who are single issue and don't see themselves as feminists. Because it's one of the only places you won't get deleted banned threatened etc.
Some old posters left to other places and don't post much any more. The places they left for this issue is a major one.
Yes it's a shame the range of post topics has narrowed
But feminism is impossible if we have no words. If our issues are separated and fractured into subsets (menstruators have this problem. People with cervixes have this problem. Etc etc. Obscuring that all the stuff is happening to women and girls
Fucked stats. Fucked sport. Fucked prisons. No place we can be without male company/ presence/ gaze/ oversight any more.

A separate board is a hard no from me.

Floisme · 17/05/2021 06:52

You have the whole of the rest of the internet to discuss issues pretending this threat to women's rights doesn't exist, but you come to the one place where women can talk about their rights and not be bullied into saying they agree that others rights come before women's rights.
Thank you stumbledin - exactly what I've been thinking only more eloquently.

Why is the rest of the Internet - and pretty much the whole of mainstream liberal media - not enough for you?
Why do you want this space too?

Erikrie · 17/05/2021 06:55

No, I think this is about not liking posters whose understanding of the oppression of women doesn't line up with the "correct" one. The same as womn who don't vote the right way or have the right opinions on other topics

Yep absolutely this.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 17/05/2021 07:00

Why is the rest of the Internet - and pretty much the whole of mainstream liberal media - not enough for you?
Why do you want this space too?

That’s an excellent question.

WarriorN · 17/05/2021 07:21

Unfortunately because males are inserting themselves into feminism, it's close to impossible to discuss many feminist topics without discussing the trans issue too.

I do start threads not associated with it and I enjoy reading threads not associated with it (enjoy is the wrong word as they're usually horrific.)

I've thought about the benefits of a separate topic and it wouldn't work.

Scroll past and post more threads only on feminist issues is my advice.

I do sometimes get sick of it (not posters, but that we have to discuss it at all) and that's when I'll post about non trans topics.

We will know things are getting better when there are fewer threads relating to trans issues.

Tibtom · 17/05/2021 07:29

Oh look! Another OP trying to shut women up.

Funny how we get these posts from time to time telling us what we mustn't talk about.

A lot of old posters aren't here anymore because they have been successfully shut up and banned for wanting to use clear language concerning men and their motivations. That should please OP.

WarriorN · 17/05/2021 07:41

Yes I met a woman via friends who had been here a good few years ago and was banned for saying it as it is.

ChattyLion · 17/05/2021 07:53

That’s a very good question about the whole rest of the internet and social media.
What is it that’s irritating to OP about this space having a lot of women gathered here who can’t use those other spaces, using this space?

NotTerfNorCis · 17/05/2021 07:59

I'm late to the party on this one I know.

But this has been discussed before.

At first I thought that splitting feminism into GC and non-GC boards wasn't a bad idea.

Then I realised that TRAs would put pressure on Mumsnet to shut down the GC board, 'because you've got another feminism board'. And it might happen, leaving us with no room to discuss GC feminism. The non-GC board would probably wither away then.

Also as people have pointed out, it's pretty difficult to discuss feminism without reference to the modern idea that 'woman' is purely a social concept and not related to biological sex.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 17/05/2021 08:02

Are you me? Name changed once, linked to my TES account, now retired from teaching so can’t be sacked for speaking the truth

I thought I had those dates right but there is a thread about remembering the first posts you read here... turns out I was a lurker for a fair few years, might have been here as early as 2004!

But I joined and posted when TES imploded and The Staffroom here took off.

I was less aware, all that inclusivity, the change in education from get the best out of each student to get As out of them all. And then this...

Two women in a week die violent deaths, overwhelmingly at the hands of people they know. Normally partners or ex partners from predominantly heterosexual relationships. Targeting mainly trans women in an effort to put a stop to this is most likely not too going to be as effective as some think Who the fuck is targetting transwomen? Have you seen what happens when women speak up about the numbers of women murdered by men they know? Seriously... if you don't know what I amytalking about then have the common decency to ask, to find out, to understand why something that basic cannot be done without women having to take TRAs into account.

You speak from a position of little information!

Barracker · 17/05/2021 08:13

I think it might be worth proposing that MNHQ create a board for each of the EA protected characteristics.

Sex is one, and 'gender reassignment' another.

Of course, I think we all know what would happen to each and every discussion about our sex on that board, including all the female topics you'd like to see more discussion of.

And I suspect the posters with the PC of 'gender reassignment' would be less interested in their own board than in the sex based board.

I may be wrong, obviously.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/05/2021 08:14

@Tibtom

Oh look! Another OP trying to shut women up.

Funny how we get these posts from time to time telling us what we mustn't talk about.

A lot of old posters aren't here anymore because they have been successfully shut up and banned for wanting to use clear language concerning men and their motivations. That should please OP.

Truedat! We know ‘the monitors’ from twitter are always watching to post screen shots and report posters. We’ve had people tell us they don’t push but merely watch threads to report posters for wrong think. Lots of regular posters were banned after the last great twitter influx a few months ago. The bunbury threads were also repeatedly targeted and reported and now they’re gone too.

It’s really not us who don’t want conversations to happen

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/05/2021 08:17

And I suspect the posters with the PC of 'gender reassignment' would be less interested in their own board than in the sex based board.

I may be wrong, obviously.

Surely you must be!

Helleofabore · 17/05/2021 08:21

Partly because it's a drop in the ocean, partly because I'm sure loads of others like me who care about feminism but have been put off this section aren't looking any more.

Is that because you think that the conflicts that the rights of females are not important, non-existent (ie. There are no conflicts at all worth discussing) or that you are already involved in campaigning to find a way forward like many of this board and just want to discuss other issues as well?

I asked this question and OP you answered

I think you've mistaken my beliefs and politics tbh.

You mention you think that the conflicts that are impacting on women’s rights will fade away. ’I think tbh a lot of this will fade away in time and gender identity issues will be treated like an issue that affects a tiny minority of people, which is what it is.’

How will it ‘fade away’ if it is written into law?

Are you, personally, happy to allow a board supposedly 50/50 to become 75/25 as one board is already? Do you find that represents the interests of females? Of your interests? Or females who are in desperate need to have their needs addressed by that board who are setting policies and influencing government?

What about sports ? Did you read the kickboxing policy thread that is currently active? Or you are happy that it will ‘fade’ away in time and maybe only 10 years of female sports protection is lost. Maybe you are not involved in competitive sports, or just not interested in females sport? If you listen to Sharron Davies about the impact on her and a her cohort of the country’s who allowed their swimmers to dope and wipe the floor, you realize that those women often do not reach their dreams due to lack of fairness. We have seen this in the USA where women lose their potential college places. Is it ok that these women miss out for x years while this fades away or, what is more likely, campaigning for sports bodies to accept the science and make sports fair and safe again?

And single sex spaces? Are you saying that you are fully on board with vulnerable women who may be triggered by the presence of males having the nature of their refuges changed ? Because who is going to change it back when for x years it was inclusive and cost wise, it is cheaper to have one inclusive refuge?

And, in a post you mentioned you don’t yet have children? Are you happy though, while this all fades away, that a cohort of female teenagers be put onto life limiting and shortening medical pathways? That they don’t have access to the mental health care they need because it has been caught up in laws for ‘conversion therapy’? What happens when this starts to affect any child you have in your life in the future? Are you going to stand up and blame others because they too thought it would just fade away?

I am asking these questions because you told me in a post that I had mistaken your beliefs. So I am seeking clarity. Either, you don’t believe that this is an issue and laws will change and when it all fades away, the laws will what... change back.

Or you don’t believe these conflicts of rights are issues at all. Or you think they are issues but are not relevant for your time of life right now and therefore, you want to talk about other issues, like the thread you have started and have got others posting on (so, proving it actually can be done and is done).

You obviously felt passionately enough about this to start this thread, hence my question.

QuentinBunbury · 17/05/2021 08:23

No, I think this is about not liking posters whose understanding of the oppression of women doesn't line up with the "correct" one.
Helpful instance of putting words in my mouth, by a "feminist" who told me yesterday that believing in patriarchy is like believing in gender identity and women shouldn't have to "push in" to mens work but instead be happy staying at home. Hmm

I'm not being exclusionary, i just appreciated it when the board was people who shared a common interest, which as cardinal says, was ending oppression of women. I feel quite alone IRL as not many people identify as feminist, so this board was "my place" and important to me.

Now the common interest is "woman = adult human female". Agree that defining women is fundamental to all other feminism but it is a change in focus for the board and I miss the old board.

My opinion doesn't mean I'm "exclusionary" or "don't like people"

Tibtom · 17/05/2021 08:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Erikrie · 17/05/2021 08:54

i just appreciated it when the board was people who shared a common interest, which as cardinal says, was ending oppression of women

It still does share that common interest. More than ever. Although rather than just talking about it women are actively coming together to do something about it.

Helleofabore · 17/05/2021 09:02

Although rather than just talking about it women are actively coming together to do something about it.

It is this aspect that I particularly like about this board. The links on how to actually enact change rather than just talking about change. The swapping of knowledge from all over the world.

And as some posters have mentioned in previous threads as well, feminism happens all across this forum from relationship support, to AIBU. It is interwoven into the grain of MN.

Shedbuilder · 17/05/2021 09:03

Top post, StumbledIn.

The trans allies are learning to be a lot more subtle, aren't they?

Helleofabore · 17/05/2021 09:19

The trans allies are learning to be a lot more subtle, aren't they?

We do seem to have had a few of the 'wrong way to feminist' threads of late, haven't we?

Or, is the OP's feeling that there was a 'golden age' for the FWR board an indictment that women felt that the rights fought for over a century seemed to be progressing at that time. Versus now when women who were in involved in fighting for those rights are seeing them being diluted and diminished instead?

I certainly feel I took my eye off the ball for a time while balancing family and work, and I was very unhappily surprised to see what was happening for the future generations of my sex. I am rather ashamed really that I actually did drop my attention now, but I am very thankful for all those who did not.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 17/05/2021 09:21

I don't think the monitors are achieving what they think they're achieving.