Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

OP, genuinely, you seem like a decent poster. Get stuck in! What other stuff are you interested in?

*Why am I'm beginning to feel like I've heard some of these arguments before:

'We don't like this space. Give it to us.'

'We've worked very hard to build up this space. Why don't you start your own? Some of us might even be able to help you.'

'No we don't want to do that. We want your space.'*

🤔

@ArabellaScott

By all means criticise trans people but the real battle is with your husbands, your brother's and your sons

Who is 'criticising trans people'? We feminists are concerned here with the removal of the word 'woman' from social discourse, with the inclusion of the opposite sex in the category 'woman'.

This threatens to render all other issues pertaining to women impossible to describe, discuss or challenge. We already, on hearing about a 'female' criminal, ask what sex they actually are. The 'gender pay gap' could magically disappear, given enough males who have never had to have a career break to mother children. Lesbians already are losing their spaces and groups absent of males. Groups set up to advance women in politics contain transwomen - the 'woman's prize' shortlisted a transwoman. And that's before we even get to the emerging scandal that is the 'transing' of children without evidence or proper care.

Lastly, why presume that 'husbands, brothers and sons' are not trans? That's a bit of an odd assumption, especially given the prominence of threads that are here specifically to support 'trans widows', and that many posters have children who identify as trans.

Why does it make things impossible to describe? Violence against women is abhorent. That same violence sometimes includes trans women. All the same, it's violence against women, unless you want to dehumanize one victim by saying that despite the harm, she isn't a real woman.

Lastly, I can't speak for your husbands and brothers but, I do know that the figures suggest that they are perhaps a demographic who are far more likely to harm you tonight. Conflating trans people and that debate with their very real threat in my opinion is not helpful.

The numbers of trans people are highly unlikely to have an influence on the gender pay gap. As far as I am aware there is not one single trans man or woman in a position of authority in our armed forces, civil service, the NHS or any private entity that has any influence on policy and government direction. There is not even a single trans man or woman with a platform at a prominent media outlet. On the contrary there are quite a few trans critical commentators presenting weekly without challenge.

Lastly, I can't speak for your husbands and brothers

OURS

And what happened to fathers? They off the hook now?

That same violence sometimes includes trans women.

Not often in the UK TBF. I'd go as far as to say that transwomen are one of the safest groups in the UK.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Lastly, I can't speak for your husbands and brothers

OURS

And what happened to fathers? They off the hook now?

Of course not, your fathers are very much in the equation.

All biological males are in the equation.

FWR is a place for women to talk about issues that affect women. That's is what we are doing and will continue to do

💯

Of course not, your fathers are very much in the equation

And yours chum

I do know that the figures suggest that they are perhaps a demographic who are far more likely to harm you tonight

So it's acknowledged that actuarial risk factors are important predictors of potential harm. Got it. Let's act on that.

So how would one know of anyone high up in the civil service, NHS, private sector etc was trans?

Dead naming is utterly forbidden so once a trans person has changed their name, unless you see a picture or they give an interview about it how would you know?

For example my sister works at one of the big magic circle law firms in London. 2 of the partners are TW (transitioned in middle age) but you wouldn’t know because the website lists them using female names.

Sue pascoe was head of UK outsourcing at price Waterhouse coopers but you’d not know they were a TW unless you googled them

I strongly suspect (having been in a meeting with them) that one of the directors of the NHS where I live Is a TW but again they have a female name and they’ve not said anything publicly so as far as everyone is concerned they’re a woman

So - how would we know of a trans person was in prominent position unless they declared it?

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

*Why am I'm beginning to feel like I've heard some of these arguments before:

'We don't like this space. Give it to us.'

'We've worked very hard to build up this space. Why don't you start your own? Some of us might even be able to help you.'

'No we don't want to do that. We want your space.'*

🤔

We have a live demonstration right here and right now.

Yes, rather offensive to presume the gender identity and/or biological sex of everyone in the media.

I don’t see the need for a separate section. I’m new here (2 years so far). I’ve learnt so much from some very wise posters here about all kinds of issues affecting adult women and girls because of their sex.

Just start a new topic.

@Erikrie

That same violence sometimes includes trans women.

Not often in the UK TBF. I'd go as far as to say that transwomen are one of the safest groups in the UK.

Do you have any figures to support that male partners of trans women in the UK are less violent to them than their counterparts to women who aren't trans? Domestic violence stats as far as I know do not defferentiate. I'm sure there are some that are that far down the rabbit hole that they would like them to. Domestic violence is abhorent, I'm always sad that some people could minimise it based on someone's sex at birth. Some might wonder if that sort of attitude allows DV to flourish. A shame really.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Of course not, your fathers are very much in the equation

And yours chum

Of course he is but, having not let him and his bigotry anywhere near me since I was a teenager, means that he's far less a risk to me than he is to his poor wife. How about yours?

He’d find it very difficult to hurt his wife

But you weren’t talking about individual brothers, fathers and husbands (and sons)

@Theeyeballsinthesky

So how would one know of anyone high up in the civil service, NHS, private sector etc was trans?

Dead naming is utterly forbidden so once a trans person has changed their name, unless you see a picture or they give an interview about it how would you know?

For example my sister works at one of the big magic circle law firms in London. 2 of the partners are TW (transitioned in middle age) but you wouldn’t know because the website lists them using female names.

Sue pascoe was head of UK outsourcing at price Waterhouse coopers but you’d not know they were a TW unless you googled them

I strongly suspect (having been in a meeting with them) that one of the directors of the NHS where I live Is a TW but again they have a female name and they’ve not said anything publicly so as far as everyone is concerned they’re a woman

So - how would we know of a trans person was in prominent position unless they declared it?

They rarely pass. We are all very kind so I wouldn’t dream of saying anything. We have a transwomen in my building. It is obvious. But I wouldn’t tell them.

Thanks for everyone who’s joined in to discuss this, sorry I really didn’t realise it was something people were often asking for.

I do dispute the idea that I’m coming in here and demanding the space and that everyone fuck off because I don’t like what you’re talking about. This is a feminist chat board, it’s the only one on MN. I helped campaign for it to exist, I am a feminist, it’s not like I’m walking into the pregnancy board and asking everyone to stop talking about their stupid pregnancies. But this thread has definitely helped me rethink. I’m going to start more threads and hope others do too.

And @Waitwhat23 can you link that poetry thread?

Let's continue directing our energy to worthwhile projects and keep on scrollin'.

Do you have any figures to support that male partners of trans women in the UK are less violent to them than their counterparts to women who aren't trans?

I'm sure you do. Why don't you post them ☺️

Lastly, I can't speak for your husbands and brothers but, I do know that the figures suggest that they are perhaps a demographic who are far more likely to harm you tonight. Conflating trans people and that debate with their very real threat in my opinion is not helpful

All statistics show that the gender identity of violent males does not make them less likely to be violent than any other males. Therefore transwomen are very much part of the debate.

* Do you have any figures to support that male partners of trans women in the UK are less violent to them than their counterparts to women who aren't trans? Domestic violence stats as far as I know do not defferentiate. I'm sure there are some that are that far down the rabbit hole that they would like them to. Domestic violence is abhorent, I'm always sad that some people could minimise it based on someone's sex at birth. Some might wonder if that sort of attitude allows DV to flourish. *

No transwomen have been killed in the last 2years but women are still dying at the rate of 2/3 a week, so I reckon that might prove that women are more at risk
than transwomen.

This is a feminist chat board, it’s the only one on MN.

There's 5 subsections under feminism. The rest don't seem to get a huge amount of traffic. And I'm sure if they popped up in active because people were posting on them they would get used.

Alternatively, absolutely looking forward to seeing the topics you post about ☺️

No problem - here it is www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4232045-A-rose-is-a-rose-is-a-rose