Polling in connection with the Labour Party and public attitudes

[Zinco]

Quoting from:

Poll proves wokery lost Labour 'red wall' seats: Sir Keir Starmer's Party is overwhelmingly associated with politically correct issues that are not backed by public

www.dailymail.co.uk/textbased/news/text-9583001/Sir-Keir-Starmers-Labour-Party-touch-public-opinion-poll-finds.html

"...Labour is also perceived to support the issue of men being allowed to redefine themselves as women and access female-only facilities, with 43 per cent associating the party with support for it and just nine per cent regarding it as a Tory issue.

Only 19 per cent of people support the measure, while 48 per cent oppose it.

Likewise, 31 per cent think Labour would support the idea of breastfeeding being renamed 'chestfeeding', but only five per cent of voters back it; and 36 per cent think Labour would support children being given puberty blockers as part of hormone therapy to change gender, with 61 per cent of people opposing it...."

I brought up Rosie Duffield with the Labour canvasser (parliamentary candidate in a Tory constituency).

I asked his opinion on her comments and if she should face disciplinary action. He said she should - for bringing the party into disrepute.

I told him in that case he’d lost my vote.

This is just one of many issues. There last manifesto was an ill-considered mess. Just look at their plans to get rid of Ofsted - clearly not well thought-out at all with regards to safeguarding. The Trojan Horse scandal was only a decade ago FFS.

Ofsted don't really focus on safeguarding though. They check schools know the safeguarding lead and that the lead knows procedure, but that's about it.
In reality Ofsted is not fit for purpose anymore. It started off as a way to help struggling schools implement the new National Curriculum and hand hold to get standards up, but it's evolved as a stick to beat teachers with. It also unfairly compares results from different catchment areas and ensures schools with more pupil premium and working class family backgrounds get poor ratings. This in turn means that the best teachers avoid these schools and the quality of education gets worse not better.

This is one issue I think Labour are right on. Ofsted in it's current guise either needs an overhaul or a new body put in it's place.

@PaleGreenGhost

And yeah the Mail is 90% shit. But when the Guardian writes articles crying about a sex offender denied hair straighteners in jail without mentioning their teenage victim; uncritical articles about homophobic American parents setting their gender non-conforming children on a path to medicalisation; and describes asking male athletes to compete with other male athletes as a human rights issue, conveniently ignoring the presumably lesser humans (female) who then can't compete at all, well I don't think "it was in the Daily Mail" is quite the killer put down it once was.

This.

The article about Gary Dean Marie and his fucking hair straighteners was the last straw for me with the Guardian, I was absolutely horrified.

@SunnydaleClassProtector99, I don't disagree that Ofsted is shit.

How any competent organisation could appoint people like Zenna Atkins as a Chair is somewhat astonishing.

I told a person (not person running for seat) that until Labour wake up and stop having such stupid policy I can't vote for them. They are no longer for the working person but the woke person.

Until Labour ditch Identity politics we will have a Conservative government.

They are no longer for the working person but the woke person.

Excellent! I may steal that.

I posted the comments below on a different thread but I'm minded to post them again here:

When I joined the LP many years ago my CLP was a "safe space" for robust but good natured discussion. All viewpoints were welcome at the table and given considerate thought. Members might disagree on certain issues but had a collective empathy with broader aims.

It was a place that tolerated the then hard left "outliers" like Corbyn who were allowed a voice and were respected for their stance on various issues and similarly centre left viewpoints.

Ironically that same level of respect has gone since JC became leader. There's no tolerance or space for discussion.

My CLP was overrun by predominantly 20 something male SJW's whose contribution was policing social media and shutting down debate in meetings. Long standing members who did actual work for the party (canvassing, admin etc) were treated with distain.

When I and a number of other long standing members finally had enough and left what do you think the reaction was?

A review of why? A discussion to try and change our minds? An offer to find compromise/common ground? A serious discussion on why so many long term members found their own party toxic?

No, the fuckers threw a party to celebrate "freeing" the CLP from the "bigots" and "blairites" (and they call the Tory's the "nasty party").

The grass roots level of capture around purity/identity politics, driven largely by middle class men is a fundamental problem for the party.

Their arrogant assumption that they hold the social moral high ground absolutely blinds them to the fact they are out of touch not only with the wider electorate but former party loyalists whilst simultaneously patronising the people whose votes they need in the belief that they simply need to be "educated".

The comment above about the Daily Mail absolutely sums up that mentality.

Like it or not it's the paper that has the largest circulation in the U.K.

Dismissing it and by default it's readers as "vile", "right wing" and "nonsense" fails to acknowledge the fact that a significant proportion of that readership are the very people the party needs to win over if they ever hope to be in govt again.

People don't vote for a party that repeatedly demonstrates that they despise them and treats them with contempt stemming from an false arrogance that they have some sort of moral social supremacy.

Way before the current trans juggernaut got properly going, I cancelled my membership because of Corbyn. I was a remainer, but hung on in there as an active party member for a little while.

The thing that really was the final straw was Corbyn and McDonnell giving a series of pro-sex-work speeches about how it would be "civilised" to have "civilised" forms of prostitution. That's not my kind of feminism (in fact I don't think it's any kind of feminism); and I also find it extremely hard to take any man seriously who says he's a Marxist/socialist, but somehow finds it just tickety-boo to have a nice capitalist market in women's bodies.

Pro-sex-work feminism is liberal/right market capitalism, not socialism; and for me that confirmed that Corbyn was a sham socialist, someone who didn't really have any systematic leftist opinions or really understand the issues and just followed what the Bromentum crowd told him he should think.

I can't vote for a party that thinks any form of prostitution is "civilised". End of.

I also find it extremely hard to take any man seriously who says he's a Marxist/socialist, but somehow finds it just tickety-boo to have a nice capitalist market in women's bodies

This in spades.....and yet "legitimising" sex work is very much a hallmark of a significant proportion of the male membership (and not just former leaders).

"legitimising" sex work is very much a hallmark of a significant proportion of the male membership (and not just former leaders).

Dawn Butler did a video for Pink News calling for ‘open debate’ on sex work. Her underlying opinion was pretty clear - she pretty much dismissed the Nordic model as being ineffective.

This doesn't surprise me. If they have any chance of being a credible opposition again they need to remember what the founding principle of the Labour Party was.

That's not my kind of feminism (in fact I don't think it's any kind of feminism); and I also find it extremely hard to take any man seriously who says he's a Marxist/socialist, but somehow finds it just tickety-boo to have a nice capitalist market in women's bodies.

This.

@Fishandhips

This doesn't surprise me. If they have any chance of being a credible opposition again they need to remember what the founding principle of the Labour Party was.

Isn’t it interesting that you’re talking of them being a credible opposition again, like being in government isn’t even in their to do list.

Well, you've got to let them walk before they can run.

@Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

I told my labour candidate on the doorstep that I had been a labour supporter and member for 15 years, but that the labelling of normal women's concerns such as wanting to keep single sex spaces in prisons as "bigotry", and the targeting of MPs such as Rosie Duffield, has meant that they have lost my vote. (Obviously if Rosie had been my mp I'd have voted for her). The candidate looked like I was a bit odd for focussing on a niche issue, but to be honest, their positioning on this reflects a bigger issue for me: whether they will be willing to hear normal opinions on issues without labelling them as hate or stupidity if they don't fit their narrative.

I don't mean to derail this thread in any way (so, people with opposing opinions on Brexit, let's not distract this thread).

Your use of the word "bigotry" and the rest of your comment suddenly reminded me of the woman from Rochdale eleven years ago that raised concerns about eastern European immigrants (this was 6 years before the Brexit vote) and the then PM, Gordon Brown, was overheard talking to his advisors in the car as a microphone was left on.

He said: "That was a disaster – they should never have put me with that woman. Whose idea was that? Ridiculous."

Asked what she had said, he replied: "Everything, she was just a bigoted woman."

I really can't help but notice the parallels between the Labour position then on that issue (and what followed) and the present Labour position on this issue.

I feel that this is yet another disconnect between the Labour party and those whose votes they have traditionally relied on.

whether they will be willing to hear normal opinions on issues without labelling them as hate or stupidity if they don't fit their narrative.

I guess they have to decide if they want to listen to the "normal opinions" of people like you and me or they want to listen to other "normal opinions" that centre gender ideology?

Who knows which way they will swing? But until they manage to get some sort of coherent plan together that will appeal to at least 51% of voters then they're going to be out of power for a very long time indeed I would suggest.

@cakedays

Way before the current trans juggernaut got properly going, I cancelled my membership because of Corbyn. I was a remainer, but hung on in there as an active party member for a little while.

The thing that really was the final straw was Corbyn and McDonnell giving a series of pro-sex-work speeches about how it would be "civilised" to have "civilised" forms of prostitution. That's not my kind of feminism (in fact I don't think it's any kind of feminism); and I also find it extremely hard to take any man seriously who says he's a Marxist/socialist, but somehow finds it just tickety-boo to have a nice capitalist market in women's bodies.

Pro-sex-work feminism is liberal/right market capitalism, not socialism; and for me that confirmed that Corbyn was a sham socialist, someone who didn't really have any systematic leftist opinions or really understand the issues and just followed what the Bromentum crowd told him he should think.

I can't vote for a party that thinks any form of prostitution is "civilised". End of.

Oh man. I clearly was completely naive on loads of these things when I voted Corbyn for leader and think that I bought into the "it'll be safer" narrative, without really thinking about it. Needless to say I have seen other options (Nordic model) and I have since changed my mind. I think a big factor for me having a harder think on many of these issues that I previously bought the lib-fem line on was having children and realising the whole other side to the biological reality of being a woman, but also thinking about how attitudes shape the world that they will grow up in.

I told my labour candidate on the doorstep that I had been a labour supporter and member for 15 years, but that the labelling of normal women's concerns such as wanting to keep single sex spaces in prisons as "bigotry" ... has meant that they have lost my vote.

I told a Labour canvasser the same and he ran away.

Isn’t it interesting that you’re talking of them being a credible opposition again, like being in government isn’t even in their to do list.

At the moment it doesn't seem it is. They need to become a credible opposition before they have a hope of being elected.

I feel I went through a very similar thought process to you mumofgirls. It's not a bad thing at all to examine your own previously held views.

He said: "That was a disaster – they should never have put me with that woman. Whose idea was that? Ridiculous."

Asked what she had said, he replied: "Everything, she was just a bigoted woman."

That was actually quite glorious when he had to go back to apologise, and keep a (from what I remember) stupid fake smile on his face.

Yeah, I would say my memory was OK on this one.

I am not convinced that it is wokery driving the voters away from Labour. Otherwise why is the SNP doing so well?

I am not convinced that it is wokery driving the voters away from Labour. Otherwise why is the SNP doing so well?

I would suggest reading ‘The Road to Somewhere’ by David Goodhart.

The SNP has managed to tap into the ‘somewhere’ passion that Labour is more than somewhat ashamed of.

The wokery pales into insignificance for many in comparison for the disdain that Labour seems to show for the British and Britain in general. The SNP can escape from this by blaming the English.

Whether this is accurate or not is irrelevant. It’s about perception. That’s the perception that people have about Labour. Every time Keir waves the flag he’s got plenty in his party sneering at him for it.

I think the misogyny will come and bite the SNP on the bum soon enough.