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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School newsletter tells girls how to bind

369 replies

ErrolTheDragon · 09/05/2021 07:56

There's a piece in the Times today ... parents not happy at the content of a newsletter produced by the 6th formers

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nonsuch-high-school-sixth-formers-told-girls-11-how-to-bind-breasts-k7slvrbkr?shareToken=a84af706d3b638e2ea3d2d53ea04e29d

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Shizuku · 09/05/2021 11:41

[quote MimiDaisy11]@Shizuku
Lots of minorities exist but it doesn't mean schools need to distribute newsletters detailing a dangerous practice.

I mean why doesn't the next newsletter inform students on how to iron their breasts in accordance with the practices in some parts of Africa? That's considered gender-based violence according to many organisations. It's not too different.[/quote]
You seriously don't see the difference between breast ironing, which is an abusive practice forced on girls against their will, and a trans boy choosing to wear a binder to help alleviate crippling gender dysphoria?

I mean, come on.

Soontobe60 · 09/05/2021 11:41

Nearly 14% of adolescents reported a previous suicide attempt; disparities by gender identity in suicide attempts were found. Female to male adolescents reported the highest rate of attempted suicide (50.8%), followed by adolescents who identified as not exclusively male or female (41.8%), male to female adolescents (29.9%), questioning adolescents (27.9%), female adolescents (17.6%), and male adolescents (9.8%)

That doesn’t tell us why those people felt the way they did. It doesn’t tell us anything actually. Any teen who expresses suicidal ideation should be urgently referred to CAMHS in order to unpick why they feel that way. Not told it must be that they are ‘born in the wrong body’.

OldCrone · 09/05/2021 11:43

Perhaps you'd like to tell trans boys how to live with crippling gender dysphoria safely whilst actually making it worse.

Where were all the 'trans boys' when I was at school in the 1970s? Why didn't any of us know any 'trans boys' at all if we went to school more than about 10 years ago? How did all these 'trans boys' back then manage their 'crippling gender dysphoria' if they didn't even talk about it to anyone?

stonecat · 09/05/2021 11:45

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R0wantrees · 09/05/2021 11:45

Shizuku You have been reminded on multiple occasions that leveraging misleading suicide statistics is contrary to Samaritan's and all Child Protection best practice.

To do so again when there are teenagers following the thread is further red flag behaviour.

Shizuku · 09/05/2021 11:47

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stonecat · 09/05/2021 11:47

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R0wantrees · 09/05/2021 11:48

Where were all the 'trans boys' when I was at school in the 1970s? Why didn't any of us know any 'trans boys' at all if we went to school more than about 10 years ago? How did all these 'trans boys' back then manage their 'crippling gender dysphoria' if they didn't even talk about it to anyone?

A lot of girls hid their breasts from male gaze with oversize jumpers, adopting a crossed-arm and hunched shoulder posture.
We had a greater freedoms not to conform to such narrow hair, make up and dress expectations.

Shizuku · 09/05/2021 11:49

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Shizuku · 09/05/2021 11:50

@R0wantrees

Where were all the 'trans boys' when I was at school in the 1970s? Why didn't any of us know any 'trans boys' at all if we went to school more than about 10 years ago? How did all these 'trans boys' back then manage their 'crippling gender dysphoria' if they didn't even talk about it to anyone?

A lot of girls hid their breasts from male gaze with oversize jumpers, adopting a crossed-arm and hunched shoulder posture.
We had a greater freedoms not to conform to such narrow hair, make up and dress expectations.

I didn't know any out lesbians at school either. I wonder why that could be. Have attitudes changed or something?
stonecat · 09/05/2021 11:50

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stonecat · 09/05/2021 11:52

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MimiDaisy11 · 09/05/2021 11:52

*You seriously don't see the difference between breast ironing, which is an abusive practice forced on girls against their will, and a trans boy choosing to wear a binder to help alleviate crippling gender dysphoria?

I mean, come on.*

I was talking about the actual practice of what they do to the breasts.
Plus the issue of consent is not so straight forward when it comes to minors. There are lots of things they're prevented from doing because they're not old enough.

Also in regards to breast ironing the person doing the ironing (often the mother) does not view it as abusive. They see it as a cultural practice and a safeguard for their daughter.

While gender dysphoria for a small minority has always existed there's clearly a cultural element going on in our own society in regards these issues too, which is affecting people who at another time wouldn't have been caught up in it.

FightingtheFoo · 09/05/2021 11:52

@Shizuku

And what about the psychological effects on a trans boy of not letting him bind?

Trans people exist - we always have, and we always will. You're just going to have to deal with it.

"And what about the psychological effects on an anorexic of not letting them starve?

Anorexic people exist - they always have, and they always will. You're just going to have to deal with it."

"And what about the psychological effects on a suicidal person of not letting them die?

Suicidal people exist - they always have, and they always will. You're just going to have to deal with it."

"And what about the psychological effects on a apotemnophiles of not letting them cut off healthy limbs?

Apotemnophiles exist - they always have, and they always will. You're just going to have to deal with it."

MimiDaisy11 · 09/05/2021 11:54

I didn't know any out lesbians at school either. I wonder why that could be. Have attitudes changed or something?

But where are the older trans men? There are plenty of gay people who came out later due to social attitudes etc but you rarely get it with older women coming out as men. Nothing like the numbers with young people.

WoolOfBat · 09/05/2021 11:54

I am very concerned about any teenager who is feeling unhappy with themselves, whether that is with their identity, weight or perceived gender.

I am horrified that gender dysphoria simultaneously is purported to be so severe that these children need certain things and advice and also that these children should look up information themselves.

Anything that makes a child feel so unhappy needs referral to a psychiatrist, not some DIY fix by sending links. If this is such a big problem that these children need it written in a news letter, it should be in an unbiased way and thoroughly point out all risk - and include where to get help.

Any sexual practices that could case damage to girls should at most be mentioned as a niche practice, driven by the porn industry and all risks summarised. There should also be links about where to turn if anyone tries to pressure them into it.

Thank am genuinely speechless that this is happening.

R0wantrees · 09/05/2021 11:55

And you want to make things just that little bit worse for them by either stopping them wearing binders, or at least stopping them being able to find information about doing it safely.

Girls experiencing deep distress with their bodies need appropriate support from experienced qualified adults. Not from other children and not from anonymous online adult TRAs.

Dr. A. Hutchinson and Dr. M. Midgen are experienced clinicians who have both worked in the NHS Gender Identity Development Service for children and young people (GIDS).
'The 'Natal Female' Question'
(extract)
"We posit that there are multiple, interweaving factors bearing down on girls and young women that have collided at this particular time causing a distress seemingly related to gender and their sex. These factors comprise both the external world (i.e. the social, political and cultural sphere) and the internal (i.e. the emotional, psychological and subjective). The external and internal interact and feed each other [1].

It is notable that even speaking about these observable, and clinically relevant, factors are seen by some as evidence of a form of anti-trans rhetoric. This deeply disturbs the clinicians whose professional lives are dedicated to understanding the source and meaning of human distress. It is from this place that we speak.

In spite of apparent social gains for minority groups, our present-day culture obsesses in highly gendered ways over the signifiers of what it means to be a boy and a girl, a man and a woman. Girls are under ever more pressure to capitulate to the ‘pinkification’ and ‘pornification’ of girlhood. Girls who eschew these signifiers, who are uncomfortable or dissent from this demand, can often be lonely and isolated in their apparent idiosyncrasy. Sexual feelings awaken amidst sexual harassment and press reports of misogynist hate crimes. Dawning same-sex attraction can occur against a backdrop of homophobia; as well as a dearth of everyday, run-of-the-mill lesbian visibility. This is particularly relevant for girls drawn to an aesthetic which is viewed as ‘masculine’ (and therefore wrongly ascribed as ‘male’), but could be understood and owned as a butch lesbian identity if only these girls had access to it. Linked to this is the absence of critical feminist thought of the most elementary nature in the school curriculum. Failing that, even basic sex parity in the classroom would impact early on the sorts of messages both girls and boys internalise about their capacities and the expectations others have on them.

Changes to the body during puberty can bring about much more turmoil than is readily acknowledged. It is particularly disconcerting and shame-inducing for girls who begin menarche early, and have to navigate the whole mess and embarrassment of sanitary protection in primary school toilet provision often ill-equipped for this. There is embarrassment inherent in growing breasts, of these being noticed and pejoratively commented on and, worse, groped.

Crucially, it is important to acknowledge, that girls and young women have long recruited their bodies as ways of expressing misery and self-hatred. Bodies become the site onto which they can project their perceived failure to live up to society’s expectations of them and also their internal, psychic pain. Psychic pain that arises out of the manifold implications of being a suffering human being: trauma, abuse, neglect, bullying, social ostracism, bereavement to name but a few. Also, for some, the fear of leaving childhood behind, the terror of female adulthood, is overwhelming." (continues)
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

FightingtheFoo · 09/05/2021 11:56

"Perhaps you'd like to tell trans boys how to live with crippling gender dysphoria safely whilst actually making it worse." @Shizuku**

Genuine question: why should these children be treated differently to anorexic girls or self-harming girls? Why in one of those three cases are you encouraging them to damage their bodies and not in the other two?

Seriously. What makes believing you're a boy when you're female different from believing you're fat when you're dangerously underweight?

titchy · 09/05/2021 12:00

Come on shiz answer my question. We're talking about a girls school here. Why would a trans boy be happy going to a girls school? How are you going to help them go to the boys school?

OldCrone · 09/05/2021 12:02

I didn't know any out lesbians at school either. I wonder why that could be. Have attitudes changed or something?

But they come out in later life. Where are all the older women who would have been 'transboys' 20 or 30 or 50 years ago? (clue: lots of women on here have said they wanted to be boys when they were children)

spoonrider · 09/05/2021 12:03

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spoonrider · 09/05/2021 12:07

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toffeebutterpopcorn · 09/05/2021 12:08

My sister was out at school mid 80s as were a few of her crowd. Trans = 0

OldCrone · 09/05/2021 12:10

@Shizuku

And what about the psychological effects on a trans boy of not letting him bind?

Trans people exist - we always have, and we always will. You're just going to have to deal with it.

These are two completely different things.

Binding causes physical harm. We shouldn't be encouraging children to cause themselves physical harm as a way of alleviating psychological distress. These children need mental health support if they are distressed by the changes of puberty, not advice on how to self harm.

Nobody has said trans people don't exist. But nobody can actually change sex and children shouldn't be encouraged to harm their bodies in pursuit of an unattainable goal.

ValancyRedfern · 09/05/2021 12:10

It is not talking about lgbt issues which is a safeguarding issue, it is providing links to websites (therefore endorsing their content) which contain material that isn't age appropriate e.g. Info on anal and fisting. 6th formers are not safeguarding trained. As a teacher with safeguarding responsibility, I can assure you this goes against all safeguarding rules.

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